Guest Silver Fox Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 So I've been a member on these boards since 2004 under one name or another. Obviously because the people here are the cooolest... I've always been a music hoarder/collector and was beyond excited when DSO finally started making SBDs of shows available online. And then.....I started seeing bands like Phish, SCI, Disco Biscuits, etc making their entire tours available. I figured that it might take DSO and other bands some time to catch on to this trend, but I'm beginning to wonder if we DSO fans will ever get this luxury. I hate to make it sound like a complaint, but it is. I want more DSO!!! I know one or two others out there who also want more. Even if it's not every show of the tour, just more DSO would be nice. I mean, Steve Kimock Band released their Mighty High recording of 5/21 by 5/25....I'm just saying.....more DSO would be awesome. So my question is wether anyone might be able to shed some light on why we don't get more shows made available for purchase. The Silver Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octal Posted June 4, 2011 Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 I have a vague feeling that there were more audience recordings back when John was with the band...does anyone else get this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Supplicated Velvet Thunder Posted June 4, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 Agreed with both of the above posts, and must add that every time it seems I go to listen to a DSO show on archive post-John, I can't seem to find a show that "sounds right" as far as posted sound quality goes. Now, granted, I am not the one in this relationship that has spent exhaustive hours downloading shows, so maybe I lack a special touch of finding the right ones, but I do spend countless hours listening and the shows with John from audience recordings on archive seemed to on average sound better than my on average picks of current DSO and this actually kind of upsets me because I would like to spend time downloading current shows, but every time we go to do so, we are put off by the muffly noises and less than crisp quality.... and I know it has NOTHING to do with the quality of music (and extremely positive energy does fuck sound up)........ so I agree more should be available so it can sound right. but what the heck do i know, right? maybe I am just not listening to the right recordings on archive, and a little help in direction pointing with that would be appreciated. for now imma just start buying what is available at the shows so at least we don't completely lack DSO with Jeff in our collection, because that is ANNOYING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP FunkyBass13 Posted June 4, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 I may be wrong, but I believe the biggest contributor to the fact that DSO recordings are slower to the streets than other bands is that Mr. Eaton is handling all of this himself. Where a band like Phish or Kimock, or SCI or WSP has staff that takes care of this almost immediately. Personally, I will take waiting a little longer and having a well rested band hit the stage every night than to hae recordings rushed out while on the bus when they should be sleeping or getting set for tonight's show. But I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Michael Doc Watson Posted June 4, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 .... Mr. Eaton is handling all of this himself. ...... Personally, I will take waiting a little longer and having a well rested band hit the stage every night .... We should be very thankful that Rob takes the time to put together all the recordings that he does. Just think about all the effort...a four hour live show proably takes at least eight hours to do all the engineering that he does to put out a high quality product. He doesn't just do a slam bam automatic transfer of the sound to a disk. And remember that the market for recordings of "All" the shows is actually rather limited so putting time and energy into distrubiting "All" the shows does not make economic sense. I'm sure that Rob loves the music but there has to be a balance between that and the time given to a regular life of rest, fun, family and an occasional round of golf. Peace and Love, Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silver Fox Posted June 4, 2011 Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 We should be very thankful that Rob takes the time to put together all the recordings that he does. Just think about all the effort...a four hour live show proably takes at least eight hours to do all the engineering that he does to put out a high quality product. He doesn't just do a slam bam automatic transfer of the sound to a disk. And remember that the market for recordings of "All" the shows is actually rather limited so putting time and energy into distrubiting "All" the shows does not make economic sense. I'm sure that Rob loves the music but there has to be a balance between that and the time given to a regular life of rest, fun, family and an occasional round of golf. Peace and Love, Doc I too am VERY thankful that Rob Eaton does the things he does. But if we are gonna talk about this from a business stand point and economic sense.......DSO employs a sound engineer, and a very good one at that. The bands that release all of the shows from a tour trust their sound engineer to do the job they are employed to do, and don't micromanage them by redoing their job. Doing any job twice doesn't make economic sense in any situation. This isn't to say that I don't love a Rob Eaton remastered show, I'm just trying to find out why we can't get more DSO. That's the end goal to this discussion, more DSO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octal Posted June 4, 2011 Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 More DSO shows of lower quality or less DSO shows of greater quality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Mango Posted June 4, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 More DSO shows of lower quality or less DSO shows of greater quality? While Eaton's sbds sound the best to my ears, I've heard others that sound quite good too(for all I know he did these one's too...)- http://www.archive.org/details/dso2005-05-30.shnf http://www.archive.org/details/dso2005-06-04-mix http://www.archive.org/details/dso2006-04-06-SBD There are more out there if you look, mostly pre-2007. Since there are still people out there who don't know who the "jerry guy" in dso is(i've even talked to people who just assumed dso longer existed when JK left)...I think it would be beneficial for the band to release a FREE SBD on THE ARCHIVE of something recent with JM. It's the best place to get the most heads to hear it, plain and simple. 2006-04-06 downloaded 16.664 times, and streamed many more without a doubt. Spread the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP nwnj steve Posted June 4, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 While Eaton's sbds sound the best to my ears, I've heard others that sound quite good too(for all I know he did these one's too...)- http://www.archive.org/details/dso2005-05-30.shnf http://www.archive.org/details/dso2005-06-04-mix http://www.archive.org/details/dso2006-04-06-SBD There are more out there if you look, mostly pre-2007. Since there are still people out there who don't know who the "jerry guy" in dso is(i've even talked to people who just assumed dso longer existed when JK left)...I think it would be beneficial for the band to release a FREE SBD on THE ARCHIVE of something recent with JM. It's the best place to get the most heads to hear it, plain and simple. 2006-04-06 downloaded 16.664 times, and streamed many more without a doubt. Spread the word. couldn t agree with you more ,thats what so good about videos spread them around the internet so people can see the new the current lineup ,facebook is really a good way of doing that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawdoc Posted June 5, 2011 Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 http://www.archive.org/details/dso2005-06-04-mix The Dew, The Dew, what about The Dew............................... Steve now I get it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Eaton Posted June 5, 2011 Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 I too am VERY thankful that Rob Eaton does the things he does. But if we are gonna talk about this from a business stand point and economic sense.......DSO employs a sound engineer, and a very good one at that. The bands that release all of the shows from a tour trust their sound engineer to do the job they are employed to do, and don't micromanage them by redoing their job. Doing any job twice doesn't make economic sense in any situation. This isn't to say that I don't love a Rob Eaton remastered show, I'm just trying to find out why we can't get more DSO. That's the end goal to this discussion, more DSO!!! Well let me address this and I'll leave you all to it... Firstly we have one of the best sound guys in the business with Cotter. But you have to remember Cotter mixes for the audience and not tapes. He will be the first to tell you every room is different and every mix from his board will reflect that. Just because it sounded great at the show does not mean the tapes will have the same effect on playback. When Betty was making tapes for the Dead or Kidd in 73/74 or even Bear back in the 60's they ALWAYS made their own mix that was independent from the house mix. Thats why they sound so good. Someone posted a link to some older shows that sound good and those are all ones that I did from our monitor position. I set up a my own mix from all the mics on stage. I also record Cotters mix, mics on the stage facing out and also the mics at front of house. In all I record 8 tracks or 4 stereo tracks if you will. All these tracks are recorded in high resolution 24bit 96k sample rate. We record on professional drives that are about 1.5 TB in size. This drive stays on the road till it's full at which time I will take it home and work on it. Since new years I've released the bulk of the Jan/Feb tour and a few from the week in March. I just brought home the April/May tours and will start with that drive soon. It does take time. I do more then just master. I take all the stage mics and "Time Allign" them to the stereo mix. After I do that I blend them into the Stereo mix. I then take those 3 stereo mixes and mix and master them down to a single stereo mix. This process is all real time. After that process is complete I then Edit the mix file. I need to make these edits in order for the tracks to fit onto CD's without cutting anything using crossfades. After this I have to use a labeling system given to me by Nugs.net. say I'm releasing 4/29/11 me and my uncle the labeling would look something like this: ((dso110429d1_Me_And_My_Uncle)). That label is stamped to the extracted file. I have to do this for every song. Once that's done I have to export my large 24/96 stamped files to 16/44.1. After I have my 44.1 files I then double check my labeling and such and then convert then to flac files for uploading to the nugs site. I then upload all the flac files and a text file of my work to nugs (this process takes takes about 6 hours per show). All in all I would say it takes my computer 15hours to master one show. We've looked into having others do the mastering but it would cost much more and make it not cost effective for us. I make less then 5 hours an hour doing this. I don't do it for the money because we don't make any money from these discs. We are lucky if we break even after paying the publishing and bandwith fee's. We do it for our fans. There will be times where our computer system crash's during a show and we lose that show for consideration for download. This is the main reason why many shows are not released. The other is the mix. When both mine and Cotters don't serve the music on tape then I will not release that show. I don't compromise. It is my call but having been the music business for as long as I have I'm the most qualified for "This" job maybe even more so then my job on stage. Hope this clears things up and give you all some perspective as to the process and our motivations for doing so. Rob Eaton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Mango Posted June 5, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 Well let me address this and I'll leave you all to it... Firstly we have one of the best sound guys in the business with Cotter. But you have to remember Cotter mixes for the audience and not tapes. He will be the first to tell you every room is different and every mix from his board will reflect that. Just because it sounded great at the show does not mean the tapes will have the same effect on playback. When Betty was making tapes for the Dead or Kidd in 73/74 or even Bear back in the 60's they ALWAYS made their own mix that was independent from the house mix. Thats why they sound so good. Someone posted a link to some older shows that sound good and those are all ones that I did from our monitor position. I set up a my own mix from all the mics on stage. I also record Cotters mix, mics on the stage facing out and also the mics at front of house. In all I record 8 tracks or 4 stereo tracks if you will. All these tracks are recorded in high resolution 24bit 96k sample rate. We record on professional drives that are about 1.5 TB in size. This drive stays on the road till it's full at which time I will take it home and work on it. Since new years I've released the bulk of the Jan/Feb tour and a few from the week in March. I just brought home the April/May tours and will start with that drive soon. It does take time. I do more then just master. I take all the stage mics and "Time Allign" them to the stereo mix. After I do that I blend them into the Stereo mix. I then take those 3 stereo mixes and mix and master them down to a single stereo mix. This process is all real time. After that process is complete I then Edit the mix file. I need to make these edits in order for the tracks to fit onto CD's without cutting anything using crossfades. After this I have to use a labeling system given to me by Nugs.net. say I'm releasing 4/29/11 me and my uncle the labeling would look something like this: ((dso110429d1_Me_And_My_Uncle)). That label is stamped to the extracted file. I have to do this for every song. Once that's done I have to export my large 24/96 stamped files to 16/44.1. After I have my 44.1 files I then double check my labeling and such and then convert then to flac files for uploading to the nugs site. I then upload all the flac files and a text file of my work to nugs (this process takes takes about 6 hours per show). All in all I would say it takes my computer 15hours to master one show. We've looked into having others do the mastering but it would cost much more and make it not cost effective for us. I make less then 5 hours an hour doing this. I don't do it for the money because we don't make any money from these discs. We are lucky if we break even after paying the publishing and bandwith fee's. We do it for our fans. There will be times where our computer system crash's during a show and we lose that show for consideration for download. This is the main reason why many shows are not released. The other is the mix. When both mine and Cotters don't serve the music on tape then I will not release that show. I don't compromise. It is my call but having been the music business for as long as I have I'm the most qualified for "This" job maybe even more so then my job on stage. Hope this clears things up and give you all some perspective as to the process and our motivations for doing so. Rob Eaton Sounds complicated. I for one I am very thankful that you do all this. :icon14: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancer'sChoice Posted June 5, 2011 Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 Thanks so much for that "behind the scene," look at what goes into making the sausage, Rob. Fifteen hours of experienced and skilled labor to master ONE show. I'm amazed you get out as many shows as you do. That said, here's a Thank You for that extra know-how, and your unwillingness to compromise when you know it just doesn't sound right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum VIP Dr. Vapor Posted June 5, 2011 Forum VIP Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 I have a quetion Rob....How do we edit out the "fans" talking during Stella Blue/China Doll/ Wharf Rat.....is there a special mic for that... I just saw in a audio magazine the other day they are coming out with a device for the sound engineer's to use to help keep the "talkers" in line....it looks a like a basball bat, but more high tech....Dr. V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Teacher Matt Posted June 5, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 Goodness gracious Mr. Eaton .... e=mc2 ain't got nothing on what you just said .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octal Posted June 5, 2011 Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 I have a quetion Rob....How do we edit out the "fans" talking during Stella Blue/China Doll/ Wharf Rat.....is there a special mic for that... I just saw in a audio magazine the other day they are coming out with a device for the sound engineer's to use to help keep the "talkers" in line....it looks a like a basball bat, but more high tech....Dr. V. Maybe something similar to what was used to prevent feedback with The Wall of Sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silver Fox Posted June 5, 2011 Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 Well let me address this and I'll leave you all to it... Firstly we have one of the best sound guys in the business with Cotter. But you have to remember Cotter mixes for the audience and not tapes. He will be the first to tell you every room is different and every mix from his board will reflect that. Just because it sounded great at the show does not mean the tapes will have the same effect on playback. When Betty was making tapes for the Dead or Kidd in 73/74 or even Bear back in the 60's they ALWAYS made their own mix that was independent from the house mix. Thats why they sound so good. Someone posted a link to some older shows that sound good and those are all ones that I did from our monitor position. I set up a my own mix from all the mics on stage. I also record Cotters mix, mics on the stage facing out and also the mics at front of house. In all I record 8 tracks or 4 stereo tracks if you will. All these tracks are recorded in high resolution 24bit 96k sample rate. We record on professional drives that are about 1.5 TB in size. This drive stays on the road till it's full at which time I will take it home and work on it. Since new years I've released the bulk of the Jan/Feb tour and a few from the week in March. I just brought home the April/May tours and will start with that drive soon. It does take time. I do more then just master. I take all the stage mics and "Time Allign" them to the stereo mix. After I do that I blend them into the Stereo mix. I then take those 3 stereo mixes and mix and master them down to a single stereo mix. This process is all real time. After that process is complete I then Edit the mix file. I need to make these edits in order for the tracks to fit onto CD's without cutting anything using crossfades. After this I have to use a labeling system given to me by Nugs.net. say I'm releasing 4/29/11 me and my uncle the labeling would look something like this: ((dso110429d1_Me_And_My_Uncle)). That label is stamped to the extracted file. I have to do this for every song. Once that's done I have to export my large 24/96 stamped files to 16/44.1. After I have my 44.1 files I then double check my labeling and such and then convert then to flac files for uploading to the nugs site. I then upload all the flac files and a text file of my work to nugs (this process takes takes about 6 hours per show). All in all I would say it takes my computer 15hours to master one show. We've looked into having others do the mastering but it would cost much more and make it not cost effective for us. I make less then 5 hours an hour doing this. I don't do it for the money because we don't make any money from these discs. We are lucky if we break even after paying the publishing and bandwith fee's. We do it for our fans. There will be times where our computer system crash's during a show and we lose that show for consideration for download. This is the main reason why many shows are not released. The other is the mix. When both mine and Cotters don't serve the music on tape then I will not release that show. I don't compromise. It is my call but having been the music business for as long as I have I'm the most qualified for "This" job maybe even more so then my job on stage. Hope this clears things up and give you all some perspective as to the process and our motivations for doing so. Rob Eaton Rob, thank you for your reply. I hope you know that your time and devotion is greatly appreciated. My DSO recordings are treasured because of their quality. You are truly a multi talented man. I appreciate you taking the time to explain the process. The world of audio/taping is something I've alway been curious of and your explanation above only makes my curiosity grow. Also, how do other band's do it? Just release the audience mix? Either way, I'm just looking for more DSO BC too much of everything is just enough! I have a quetion Rob....How do we edit out the "fans" talking during Stella Blue/China Doll/ Wharf Rat.....is there a special mic for that... I just saw in a audio magazine the other day they are coming out with a device for the sound engineer's to use to help keep the "talkers" in line....it looks a like a basball bat, but more high tech....Dr. V. Dr Vapor, did the item you're referring to look anything like this? I may have read that same article. I support it fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP FunkyBass13 Posted June 5, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 And who said James Brown was the hardest working man in show business? Damn, thanks again Rob for doing what you do to not only give the fans at the venue a great performance but for taking the time to make sure that those of us that aren't also get "nothin' but the best". Your steller efforts are appreciated more than you can know. I definitely agree: I'm pretty sure that we have the most qualified person in the scene getting these shows from source to consumer. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindman Posted June 6, 2011 Report Share Posted June 6, 2011 Thanks Rob. Your efforts are a gift to the fans and will leave a recorded history of the band's communal efforts. DSO shows are historic... at least in my mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP gr8fulpair Posted June 6, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 6, 2011 "And we will release no Dew until we're through.." Rob, that was so awesome of you to give us that insight into what it takes to get a show out there. One of the primary things that has fueled my admiration for DSO is the unbridled QUALITY that goes into every single thing they do. Performance, Music, Sound, Lights, Production, Merchandise, Logistics......on and on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Teacher Matt Posted June 6, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 6, 2011 So .... like ... who can help me convert my vinyl to cassettes ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Michael Doc Watson Posted June 6, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 6, 2011 Well let me address ............. Hope this clears things up and give you all some perspective as to the process and our motivations for doing so. Rob Eaton Rob, Thank you for the explaination of the process. I've always been interested in the technical aspects ever since watching my brother, Joe Neil, do sound engineering in his Atlanta studies and in Sam's Tape Truck. Peace, Love, and Fine Music for All Our Ears Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Michael Doc Watson Posted June 6, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 6, 2011 So .... like ... who can help me convert my vinyl to cassettes ... Maybe we can do it like this.... Radio Shack has a USB turntable that is for vinyl to PC hard drive, make a CD, then rig the software program to convert the digital back to an analog signal, then lay it down on some used cassetes picked up at a yard sale...just watch out for the tape flip right in the middle of Stella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Teacher Matt Posted June 6, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 6, 2011 Doc - the dreaded tape flip in the middle of Stella .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP anddave Posted June 6, 2011 Forum MVP Report Share Posted June 6, 2011 Nice! I'm not a world-renowned recording dude but I have done enough to know what Eaton's saying and it's awfully nice of him even to spend the time writing it down like that in such clear detail, let alone doing any of it in addition to performing and setlist planning. That post is a gift for those with ears to hear. Taping is hard work and sharing the results is yet more hard work and those who do it, on both sides of the stage, are very generous with their time and attention, usually to the delight of all even in the case of lesser tape quality. If you have an interest, just dive in. You'll be surprised at how easy it is to get a listenable recording and you'll be endlessly entertained trying to learn to make better ones. Better than both you'll be doing a favor to people just like you. ...and me! Semper Tape!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.