Libya - Not Sure What Our President Has Planned

[Teacher Matt]

I am able to sleep better that President Obomba ... oops .. I mean Obama has planned for Libya ...

BUT am happy I know who he picked to get to the "Final Four" ..

[bs69]

I am able to sleep better that President Obomba ... oops .. I mean Obama has planned for Libya ...

BUT am happy I know who he picked to get to the "Final Four" ..

Ghaddaffi has never been our friend, so bombs away! Apparently the guys in Bahrain and Yemen are friendly so we will steer clear of those. Actually, I think they thought that ghadaffi would take the money and run like Mubarek, he didn't and now they don't know what plan B is.

[Teacher Matt]

Ghaddaffi has never been our friend, so bombs away! Apparently the guys in Bahrain and Yemen are friendly so we will steer clear of those. Actually, I think they thought that ghadaffi would take the money and run like Mubarek, he didn't and now they don't know what plan B is.

If that is the argument then why did the Democrats and supporters of the Democrats make President Bush out to be a "War" at all cost President for doing basically the same thing in terms of Iraq and Afghanistan ??

I want to know what all the Obomba... oops again... Obama supporters have to say about what he is doing ???

they voted for "hope" and "change" and elected him like he was a rock star.... and now they can't back him up because he has turned his back on them and has become like all President's past... and that is .... at all cost keep the rich happy in this country..

[Starhead420]

If that is the argument then why did the Democrats and supporters of the Democrats make President Bush out to be a "War" at all cost President for doing basically the same thing in terms of Iraq and Afghanistan ??

I want to know what all the Obomba... oops again... Obama supporters have to say about what he is doing ???

they voted for "hope" and "change" and elected him like he was a rock star.... and now they can't back him up because he has turned his back on them and has become like all President's past... and that is .... at all cost keep the rich happy in this country..

I just want to know how bombing libya is keeping the rich americans happy? I also think its funny how the world calls for a no fly zone, then when we HELP other countries go thru with the no fly zone, and Obamas a war monger? Lets not forget here folks the Ghadafi is a crazy lunatic who is killing "his people" for speaking their minds. I think these libyans deserve a fighting chance, and to be heard.

[Tom Banjo]

The Libyan rebels we are supporting and protecting are closely tied to terrorist organizations including those killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a real shame that the united states of we know better than you can't leave the situation alone and let libya decide Libyas fate. Neither side is good for America and I doubt a positive outcome will stem from violence and revolt in Libya. At the very least, we could have chose to keep our hands clean.

[Teacher Matt]

The Libyan rebels we are supporting and protecting are closely tied to terrorist organizations including those killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a real shame that the united states of we know better than you can't leave the situation alone and let libya decide Libyas fate. Neither side is good for America and I doubt a positive outcome will stem from violence and revolt in Libya. At the very least, we could have chose to keep our hands clean.

thank you Rick....

and if Obama would do those things... he would get my vote in 2012

[Guest subcooler]

The Libyan rebels we are supporting and protecting are closely tied to terrorist organizations including those killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a real shame that the united states of we know better than you can't leave the situation alone and let libya decide Libyas fate. Neither side is good for America and I doubt a positive outcome will stem from violence and revolt in Libya. At the very least, we could have chose to keep our hands clean.

It would have been nice if our leaders chose to address America's problems( EX: foreclosures/crime/unemployment) and let ALL the middle East countries tend to thier own problems!

In the future we should have a press confrenence and announce " Due to economic downturn, the United States of Americe is forced to focus on it's own problems and cannot address your current crisis!"

Peace,

Rob

[Tom Banjo]

It would have been nice if our leaders chose to address America's problems( EX: foreclosures/crime/unemployment) and let ALL the middle East countries tend to thier own problems!

In the future we should have a press confrenence and announce " Due to economic downturn, the United States of Americe is forced to focus on it's own problems and cannot address your current crisis!"

Peace,

Rob

Unfortunately, I do not believe the real economic downturn has taken place yet. Unemployment and a stock market crash are serious and not to be laughed at, but the real problem will come with the devaluation of the dollar due to rising dificit spending and the eventual defaults by county and state governments. I can't believe we continue to send so much money in aid to other countries with the size of our deficit. No, I am not talking about Japan or Haiti, but the countries that receive aid on an annual basis even when no major catastrophe has taken place. The United States has become the imperial power of the world and therefore, feels the need to continue to meddle in everyone's business. We have become what are forefathers revolted against.

[bs69]

Unfortunately, I do not believe the real economic downturn has taken place yet. Unemployment and a stock market crash are serious and not to be laughed at, but the real problem will come with the devaluation of the dollar due to rising dificit spending and the eventual defaults by county and state governments. I can't believe we continue to send so much money in aid to other countries with the size of our deficit. No, I am not talking about Japan or Haiti, but the countries that receive aid on an annual basis even when no major catastrophe has taken place. The United States has become the imperial power of the world and therefore, feels the need to continue to meddle in everyone's business. We have become what are forefathers revolted against.

It is the moral dilemna. Should we be obligated, as the most powerful country, to interfere in case of injustice or even genocide. Hard to say. A lot of times, todays friend is tomorrows enemy. Are we obligated to help somebody we see getting beat up on the street, or do we owe to our family to stay out of harms way?

[Tom Banjo]

It is the moral dilemna. Should we be obligated, as the most powerful country, to interfere in case of injustice or even genocide. Hard to say. A lot of times, todays friend is tomorrows enemy. Are we obligated to help somebody we see getting beat up on the street, or do we owe to our family to stay out of harms way?

The biggest sign of American hubris today is this belief that America due to its large GDP or economic standing and its superior military is somehow the most powerful country. Power doesn't stem from money or from might, but from a soundness of ideas. If America can't convince those it conquers or supports that their nature is benevolent and positive, then they have not accomplished anything, but weakening their own power structure. America's interest in Libya and the other Arab nations has little to do with morality - we don't care about genocide in Africa - it has to do with protecting oil relationships and money. Those revolting in Libya have taken over some of the nations most valuable oil fields. Its sad when oil interests cause you to support those that would kill us if given the chance.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/world/africa/30diplo.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110328/ap_on_bi_ge/oil_prices

We said Bush was in it for the oil and we have to be willing to accuse Obama of the same thing. It doesn't seem to make much difference who's in charge. Not much difference between a Bush and a Obama.

[Teacher Matt]

I think Obama is actually worse than Bush...

at least with Bush he told you straight up what he was going to do.. and if you wanted to vote for him to re-elect him you could.. .. and this country did... and if he could have ran for a 3rd term... he would have beat Obama

Obama told the people of this country .. "here is the kool-aid .. drink it" ... "Hope and Change" .... yeah right...

I enjoy the freedom to express what you believe .. BUT ...when so many people ripped Bush and put Obama on this "he is awesome" platform... I sat back and watched.. and now ?

where are the Obama supporters today ??..

[Tom Banjo]

I think Obama is actually worse than Bush...

at least with Bush he told you straight up what he was going to do.. and if you wanted to vote for him to re-elect him you could.. .. and this country did... and if he could have ran for a 3rd term... he would have beat Obama

Obama told the people of this country .. "here is the kool-aid .. drink it" ... "Hope and Change" .... yeah right...

I enjoy the freedom to express what you believe .. BUT ...when so many people ripped Bush and put Obama on this "he is awesome" platform... I sat back and watched.. and now ?

where are the Obama supporters today ??..

I'm not a huge fan of either. Not that my opinion really matters. I am not allowed to vote anyway. Bush and Obama have both taken us down the same path of fiscal irresponsibility that will culminate in the destruction of the American empire.

http://www.cagw.org

check out there ad that they air on TV. Its sad but true.

[Teacher Matt]

I'm not a huge fan of either. Not that my opinion really matters. I am not allowed to vote anyway. Bush and Obama have both taken us down the same path of fiscal irresponsibility that will culminate in the destruction of the American empire.

http://www.cagw.org

check out there ad that they air on TV. Its sad but true.

again Rick - I agree with you...

[Tom Banjo]

And another thing about the humanitarian issue bs69 and starhead420 bring up. These rebels are not like the protestors in Egypt. Those people took to the streets and for the most part organized peaceful gatherings to protest the restrictive nature of their government. These rebels are militant. I am by no means calling Ghadafi a good person or a fit ruler, but I do think that a government has the right to quell a violent protest. I never read Chucks suggested book on the Whiskey Rebellion, but I know the basic facts. We took military action to stop rebellion in our country. We did similar things in the civil war. If the rebels really represent the majority of Libyans they wouldn't need help to secure the removal of Ghadafi. They happen to be a militant group and the only appropriate action is to quell the rebellion. I am sure that civilians will die in this process. If you think for a second, when the U.S. wages war or bombs countries, that we don't also kill innocent civilians in the process your crazy. War isn't pretty or perfect and should rarely be sought out as the answer. Violence usually breeds more violance. Hatred usually breeds more hatred. I have been doing a lot of reading about the Middle East and Arab nations lately, including Lybia, Syria, etc. I find the situation very unsettling. Civil War is breaking out across the region and will continue to break out across the region. We can help dictate winners if we want, but there aren't really any winners in war. Just more people dead.

If we were to get our rifles out and march on Washington, do you not think the U.S. government would take military action to stop our rebellion? Do you think China, Germany, Great Britain, etc should try to help us topple our government? Do you think Obama and Congress should just concede power because thousands of people have taken up arms against the government?

[Tom Banjo]

I was really hoping someone would answer those questions, but I guess no one is willing to take the bait.

[Teacher Matt]

The Obama supporters have nothing .... he has made them look like fools... he has made the Bush bashing they so easily did now make them look silly ....

[FunkyBass13]

I think Obama is actually worse than Bush...

at least with Bush he told you straight up what he was going to do..

Its the old Fox vs Wolf. Democrats are sly, like a Fox and trick everyone into thinking they are on the side of the people. The Republicans are the Wolf: you know exactly what they are after and they don't sneak around. Personally, I like to see it coming. That being said, they are all in it for POWER and MONEY. That's all it is about. Doesn't matter what platform you run on or what you say you're going to do. Every person who was elected President(that I've gotten to see campaign) tells people what they want to hear. Once elected, it is business as usual.

Next, we will arm the rebels in their fight against that evil tyrant. Then, we will find a way to get ourselves out of that situation. Fast forward another 5-10 years and we will be in a "conflict" with those same rebels, if not in Lybia, then somewhere else. And repeat. Remember, the Taliban in Afganistan was head up by Lybians. So we are just setting up the next war, sorry conflict.

When was the last time we fought a war/conflict/peace mission that wasn't against our own weapons???? Exactly.

Or, as our elected officials would prefer: Baaaaa baaaaaa baaaaa baaaaa, just like a good sheep.

[chuckvegas]

Its the old Fox vs Wolf. Democrats are sly, like a Fox and trick everyone into thinking they are on the side of the people. The Republicans are the Wolf: you know exactly what they are after and they don't sneak around. Personally, I like to see it coming. That being said, they are all in it for POWER and MONEY. That's all it is about. Doesn't matter what platform you run on or what you say you're going to do. Every person who was elected President(that I've gotten to see campaign) tells people what they want to hear. Once elected, it is business as usual.

Next, we will arm the rebels in their fight against that evil tyrant. Then, we will find a way to get ourselves out of that situation. Fast forward another 5-10 years and we will be in a "conflict" with those same rebels, if not in Lybia, then somewhere else. And repeat. Remember, the Taliban in Afganistan was head up by Lybians. So we are just setting up the next war, sorry conflict.

When was the last time we fought a war/conflict/peace mission that wasn't against our own weapons???? Exactly.

Or, as our elected officials would prefer: Baaaaa baaaaaa baaaaa baaaaa, just like a good sheep.

This is a good thread, and everyone makes what I think are cogent and well-considered points.

I am of two minds about involvement in Libya, but I keep coming back to the mujahadeen fighting the Soviets in Afganistan. We arm them (no indigenous people can stand up to the firepower of a modern superpower military unless they are commited to long-haul asymetrical warfare) and talk about fast-forwarding - voila, the Taliban. On our nickel.

We have CIA boots on the ground now in Libya, and hopefully they are remembering a little history so we don't repeat it too blindly.

Last conflict in which we didn't fight our own weapons and munitions? I'd say Vietnam. Except for the IEDs (back when they were still booby traps) they made using our grenades, artillery shells, and UXBs. Of course, we randomly used their AKs so it all evens out. Or not...

[bs69]

Its the old Fox vs Wolf. Democrats are sly, like a Fox and trick everyone into thinking they are on the side of the people. The Republicans are the Wolf: you know exactly what they are after and they don't sneak around. Personally, I like to see it coming. That being said, they are all in it for POWER and MONEY. That's all it is about. Doesn't matter what platform you run on or what you say you're going to do. Every person who was elected President(that I've gotten to see campaign) tells people what they want to hear. Once elected, it is business as usual.

Next, we will arm the rebels in their fight against that evil tyrant. Then, we will find a way to get ourselves out of that situation. Fast forward another 5-10 years and we will be in a "conflict" with those same rebels, if not in Lybia, then somewhere else. And repeat. Remember, the Taliban in Afganistan was head up by Lybians. So we are just setting up the next war, sorry conflict.

When was the last time we fought a war/conflict/peace mission that wasn't against our own weapons???? Exactly.

Or, as our elected officials would prefer: Baaaaa baaaaaa baaaaa baaaaa, just like a good sheep.

Exactly. The only winners are the arms dealers.

[Tom Banjo]

Its the old Fox vs Wolf. Democrats are sly, like a Fox and trick everyone into thinking they are on the side of the people. The Republicans are the Wolf: you know exactly what they are after and they don't sneak around. Personally, I like to see it coming. That being said, they are all in it for POWER and MONEY. That's all it is about. Doesn't matter what platform you run on or what you say you're going to do. Every person who was elected President(that I've gotten to see campaign) tells people what they want to hear. Once elected, it is business as usual.

Next, we will arm the rebels in their fight against that evil tyrant. Then, we will find a way to get ourselves out of that situation. Fast forward another 5-10 years and we will be in a "conflict" with those same rebels, if not in Lybia, then somewhere else. And repeat. Remember, the Taliban in Afganistan was head up by Lybians. So we are just setting up the next war, sorry conflict.

When was the last time we fought a war/conflict/peace mission that wasn't against our own weapons???? Exactly.

Or, as our elected officials would prefer: Baaaaa baaaaaa baaaaa baaaaa, just like a good sheep.

Very well put. The arms dealers do set to benefit from the conflict and the US is currently and has been for quite sometime the largest exporter of arms in the world. It makes perfect sense that those in power would want to support arms dealers that are very active in political contributions and make up a significant part of US GDP. However, the real question is when will we decide not to be sheep because even those talking about it and aware of it, myself included, still act like sheep. We continue to be afraid to take a stand and enact real change. Real change isn't going to come from the political machine - the democratic or republican party - but from people who finally decide enough is enough and put an end to this chirade.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/world/07wikileaks-weapons.html?hp

good article on the issue

another good article on US involvement in the Arab spring.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fworld%2Findex.jsonp

[FunkyBass13]

Very well put. The arms dealers do set to benefit from the conflict and the US is currently and has been for quite sometime the largest exporter of arms in the world. It makes perfect sense that those in power would want to support arms dealers that are very active in political contributions and make up a significant part of US GDP. However, the real question is when will we decide not to be sheep because even those talking about it and aware of it, myself included, still act like sheep. We continue to be afraid to take a stand and enact real change. Real change isn't going to come from the political machine - the democratic or republican party - but from people who finally decide enough is enough and put an end to this chirade.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/world/07wikileaks-weapons.html?hp

good article on the issue

another good article on US involvement in the Arab spring.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fworld%2Findex.jsonp

Very good point. There is no way that the change is actually going to come from within. it will only come from The People forcing the change. There is too much money being made by those currently in power to actually want to change anything, thus, potentially taking away some of the money that they are currently making. It shouldn't be too hard to understand why many(especially on the GOP side of things) have a vested interest in companies that deal in National Defense and weapons distribution.

Where I see one of the biggest hurdles for making change is that fact that the Government Machine has made it a priority to spread fear. Why, because scared people will act more like sheep when you promise to protect them. My wife and I started an experiment a little while ago: watch the 10pm news and see how many stories deal with anything positive. About 90% stem from somebody doing something very bad. Even the ones they spin into a happy ending, start with something meant to scare people. Now, I know that I don't get too scared with the news stories. However, after you analyze about a weeks worth of these scare stories, think about the reaction of all the elderly people in your neighborhood. I bet it would be much different from your own reaction. Now who DEFINITELY goes out and votes? Who never wants to believe that those in power aren't looking out for our best interests?