Constitutional Crisis

[Tom Banjo]

If your looking for a good read and some evidence of the the desecration of the Constitution, I would recommend reading Judge Andrew Napolitano's books Constitutional Crisis, the Constitution in Exile, and A nation of sheep. He is a conservative and a friend of Bill O'Reilly's so some on this forum may not agree with his own personal views, but he has a lot of evidence and insight into the continued eradication of our natural rights and the police and government authorities disregard for the Constitution of the United States. His time spent serving as judge allowed him to see firsthand the lengths that the police and government will go to enforce their laws - even at the expense of breaking those same laws.

[nastero]

If your looking for a good read and some evidence of the the desecration of the Constitution, I would recommend reading Judge Andrew Napolitano's books Constitutional Crisis, the Constitution in Exile, and A nation of sheep. He is a conservative and a friend of Bill O'Reilly's so some on this forum may not agree with his own personal views, but he has a lot of evidence and insight into the continued eradication of our natural rights and the police and government authorities disregard for the Constitution of the United States. His time spent serving as judge allowed him to see firsthand the lengths that the police and government will go to enforce their laws - even at the expense of breaking those same laws.

Duly noted. I'll admit I'm not a real big fan of talking heads and sensationalists on either side of the political coin (at least insofar as we seem to be force-fed two sides to that coin, rather than say, using a 20 sided die), but I do enjoy being enlightened about how we're being screwed over

[chuckvegas]

This is also an interesting read as regards a major turning point in our national history...

[Tom Banjo]

This is also an interesting read as regards a major turning point in our national history...

Chuck,

I will give your book a read in the near future. Maybe you could give the books I suggested a read, if you have not done so already. We can then have a discussion about the books so that others can learn about their contents since many people don't care to read, don't have time to read, or simple cannot read. I believe that the lack of an informed populous about the Constitution and the US Governments abuses of the previous mentioned document have lead to the Government's ease and free pass to continue these violations. I could be wrong. The American public, if put to a referendum, might be ready to vote away the Constitution, but I doubt it. Unfortunately, due to lack of knowledge, I believe the American public has allowed the U.S. government to essentially render many aspects of the Constitution null and void.

"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty (Thomas Jefferson)."

[Pugdog]

We can then have a discussion about the books so that others can learn about their contents since many people don't care to read, don't have time to read, or simple cannot read.

I would like to hope the folks reading this forum can actually read

[Tom Banjo]

I would like to hope the folks reading this forum can actually read

I imagine those on this forum can read. Not all Americans can. I wasn't talking about you pug. By my use of the word simple and not simply even my use of the English language is greatly flawed. Internet forums probably ensure that the users can read and write at a 5th grade level.

[P2inboulder]

What about Jethro Bodine, when he grad- ge- ated the sixth grade?

[Tom Banjo]

I don't think this thread is going anywhere. I am going to delete the thread in the next few days. If anyone wishes otherwise, please let me know. I just don't think this is the forum to tackle topics like this. Since I graduated from Georgetown, I have struggled to find a place to have academic and serious conversations about the issues facing the US and the World. I will try a different place for that type of intellectual stimulation. Check out the Let it Grow and Stella Blue threads for some quality listening recomendations and some heartfelt and sincere discussion about the music we all love. Peace and love to all.

[P2inboulder]

Just goofing with the others. Yes, in all earnest, with the shape of the looming crises that face the world, + especially the US, that would be a refreshing change of pace. Happy holidays!

[Tom Banjo]

Just goofing with the others. Yes, in all earnest, with the shape of the looming crises that face the world, + especially the US, that would be a refreshing change of pace. Happy holidays!

It is allgood Boulder. I'm happy that some people think this is a laughing matter. I shouldn't have made a comment about people not being able to read. I am probably partially responsible for the jokes occuring on this thread, but outside of Chucks and Nastero post, I don't believe anyone has made a serious reply to this thread. I don't believe that the crisis is looming; I think that the crisis is already here. I hope everyone has a great a Holiday.

[nastero]

It is allgood Boulder. I'm happy that some people think this is a laughing matter. I shouldn't have made a comment about people not being able to read. I am probably partially responsible for the jokes occuring on this thread, but outside of Chucks and Nastero post, I don't believe anyone has made a serious reply to this thread. I don't believe that the crisis is looming; I think that the crisis is already here. I hope everyone has a great a Holiday.

I'd very much like to keep this thread around as a reference point for the reading materials, I'm terrible at writing that stuff down. At least keep it around for another week so I can find a pen and paper .

I just actually had a wonderful discussion with my parents about this subject tonight that was spurred on, in part, due to this post. I think an interesting read for folks who are wondering perhaps where we might have started to go awry would be "The Grapes of Wrath". It might not seem like it on the surface, but the themes and the events in the book are certainly places in our history where the Gov't and the wealthy really started to set the hook into the masses in terms of creating a nation of dependents rather than independents.

[nastero]

whoops, double post!

[Tom Banjo]

I'd very much like to keep this thread around as a reference point for the reading materials, I'm terrible at writing that stuff down. At least keep it around for another week so I can find a pen and paper .

I just actually had a wonderful discussion with my parents about this subject tonight that was spurred on, in part, due to this post. I think an interesting read for folks who are wondering perhaps where we might have started to go awry would be "The Grapes of Wrath". It might not seem like it on the surface, but the themes and the events in the book are certainly places in our history where the Gov't and the wealthy really started to set the hook into the masses in terms of creating a nation of dependents rather than independents.

I can see your interpretation of "The Grapes of Wrath." When I read the work in high school, we focused mostly on the social issues and very little discussion transpired about America as a whole or the American government. Despite the discussion, your interpretation of the work has a lot of validity and some of our current problems certainly stem from a condition of dependence as opposed to independence in the American system. Today, most people work for money and their work has nothing to do with the production of food. Therefore, if the money was to become valueless, they would have no means to procure the food that they eat. I will post notes on the three works by Judge Napolitano I posted on this thread within a week. Sorry guys; I can't stop reading in an academic manner and I am in some ways outlining the work. Despite the jokes, I would love to share this information with this forum if it only serves to help one person learn about the injustice of the government. So I guess let the jokes continue, although I would hope those that only care to joke choose not to read this thread.

[Tom Banjo]

I have finished the first two books. Constitutional Chaos and The Constitution in Exile. I will post tomorrow or the next day with comprehensive outlines of both. I would still recommend reading the works, but I do believe most of the relevant information will be contained in the outlines. The situation is far worse than I bet many of us imagine. The Constitution means very little at this point. If an invading nation took control of the United States government and behaved the way our government is behaving, we would put a stop to it, one way or another.

[chuckvegas]

I concur about keeping the thread alive, if only as a place for folks to vent and share (actually, come to think of it, that is the purpose of most threads on most forums). I have a few books to share and will post them in a bit. Meanwhile, I'll just say, that if this country ever has a serious bout of either major deflation or, God forbid, hyperflation like Weimar Germany or more recently Zimbabwe, we are utterly toast. Failing that, if we just continue to muddle through, "Idiocracy" looks more and more prophetic.

[Tom Banjo]

I concur about keeping the thread alive, if only as a place for folks to vent and share (actually, come to think of it, that is the purpose of most threads on most forums). I have a few books to share and will post them in a bit. Meanwhile, I'll just say, that if this country ever has a serious bout of either major deflation or, God forbid, hyperflation like Weimar Germany or more recently Zimbabwe, we are utterly toast. Failing that, if we just continue to muddle through, "Idiocracy" looks more and more prophetic.

Our government is not likely to allow the county to experience hyperflation or major deflation. The US government controls the production of money, the banks, and sets prices for many essential commodities. They do this by violating and expanding the enumerated powers given to them by the Constitution. The US is no modern day China or communist Russia of yesterday but it certainly resembles a socialist welfare state. Whatever happen to capitalism and the intersection of supply and demand?

[chuckvegas]

Whatever happen to capitalism and the intersection of supply and demand?

One short but not flippant answer to that is: over seventy years of federal court decisions taking an extremely expansive (to put it mildly) interpretation of the interstate commerce clause.

Within the last ten or fifteen years there have been some Supreme Court decisions that have rolled back the most seeping potential application of the power that is enumerated as the the commerce clause. And while I have mixed feelings about Obamacare, I was glad to briefly read some of Virginia vs Kathleen Sebelius, ruling that the individual mandate portion (requiring individuals to purchase insurance) of Obamacare is an unconstitutional application of Congressional ability to regulate interstate commerce. Obviously the Supremes will ultimately rule on this and the other pending cases involving that legislation; given decades of precedence on the subject, care to bet how it will all shake out?

[Tom Banjo]

Whatever happen to capitalism and the intersection of supply and demand?

One short but not flippant answer to that is: over seventy years of federal court decisions taking an extremely expansive (to put it mildly) interpretation of the interstate commerce clause.

Within the last ten or fifteen years there have been some Supreme Court decisions that have rolled back the most seeping potential application of the power that is enumerated as the the commerce clause. And while I have mixed feelings about Obamacare, I was glad to briefly read some of Virginia vs Kathleen Sebelius, ruling that the individual mandate portion (requiring individuals to purchase insurance) of Obamacare is an unconstitutional application of Congressional ability to regulate interstate commerce. Obviously the Supremes will ultimately rule on this and the other pending cases involving that legislation; given decades of precedence on the subject, care to bet how it will all shake out?

Yes, the Commerce Clause. Once intended to be a check on the power of the federal government's power has been interpreted and twisted throughout the history of this country to allow the federal government to expand their power base at will. The Commerce Clause use to only allow the federal government to regulate the exchange of goods across state lines. The sale of interstate goods and the production of interstate good were once outside the power of the federal government to regulate. As the Founders intended, the Commerce Clause was supposed to limit the power of the Federal government and should only be applied to the exchange and transport of goods amongst states. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court eventually changed their job or position from making sure laws were Constitutional to whether laws were well-intentioned to help the general welfare of people. This is a major problem today. In order for a free America to exist, the government must respect the Constitution, individual liberty, and free market capitalism regardless of how well intentioned they may be. A lot of this occurred when the Supreme Court was forced by FDR to change their government limiting positions in order to prevent FDR from following his court packing plan. I no longer have faith that the Supreme Court will do its job and serve as a Constitutional check on the president or the legislature. I would expect them to rule that Obamacare (all of Obamacare) is Constitutional and well within the federal government's power under the Commerce Clause and the General Welfare Clause of the Constitution of the United States. Unfortunately, this is a gross misrepresentation and twisted interpretation of a document that the Founding Fathers originally intended to serve as a check on the federal government's power. The system has failed us. When the government expands their power, the liberty and freedom of Americans suffer.

[bs69]

Whatever happen to capitalism and the intersection of supply and demand?

One short but not flippant answer to that is: over seventy years of federal court decisions taking an extremely expansive (to put it mildly) interpretation of the interstate commerce clause.

Within the last ten or fifteen years there have been some Supreme Court decisions that have rolled back the most seeping potential application of the power that is enumerated as the the commerce clause. And while I have mixed feelings about Obamacare, I was glad to briefly read some of Virginia vs Kathleen Sebelius, ruling that the individual mandate portion (requiring individuals to purchase insurance) of Obamacare is an unconstitutional application of Congressional ability to regulate interstate commerce. Obviously the Supremes will ultimately rule on this and the other pending cases involving that legislation; given decades of precedence on the subject, care to bet how it will all shake out?

It is essential that the young and healthy be forced to buy insurance or the whole thing falls apart. What some people can not seem to grasp is that there are a lot of people without health insurance by choice.

[Tom Banjo]

I haven't forgot about outlines. I'm finished thrid book. I will post them all together shortly after new years. Been hectic with the family in town.

[anddave]

Hey rickE and Chuck and everyone else.

Keep the thread alive. Some of us read and don't reply cuz we've said too much on some occasions past.

I will venture the following bits:

- I agree enthusiastically that the Commerce Clause is way overapplied and that the Obama health plan is an example.

- Chuck is right. READ THE WHISKY REBELLION. The more you can correlate so-called history to the so-called present the less easy it is to fool you with hokey self-serving comparisons to carefully scrubbed selective history.

- Nation of dependents is quite definitely the crux, and it's not just an American issue but a human one. Scratching your life from the dust of the earth is hard. Anyone who doesn't know that first hand is dependent. Including me. Imagine you were to walk the earth alone without the rest of humanity to clothe feed and shelter you; nobody to provide tools, nothing to buy with money, nobody to mine and smelt ore, etc etc etc. If you can imagine it then you are much closer to freedom than most. If you can do it then you are one of very very few. If you actually do do it then you will be damn near unique and in some pretty scary company. Irony abounds. The ruggged individualist that we claim to prize is usually dismissed as a weirdo. I'm almost sick of hearing people even say "freedom" anymore. So few have any grip on its meaning. So many think that liberty is freedom. It's not.

[Tom Banjo]

Hey rickE and Chuck and everyone else.

Keep the thread alive. Some of us read and don't reply cuz we've said too much on some occasions past.

I will venture the following bits:

- I agree enthusiastically that the Commerce Clause is way overapplied and that the Obama health plan is an example.

- Chuck is right. READ THE WHISKY REBELLION. The more you can correlate so-called history to the so-called present the less easy it is to fool you with hokey self-serving comparisons to carefully scrubbed selective history.

- Nation of dependents is quite definitely the crux, and it's not just an American issue but a human one. Scratching your life from the dust of the earth is hard. Anyone who doesn't know that first hand is dependent. Including me. Imagine you were to walk the earth alone without the rest of humanity to clothe feed and shelter you; nobody to provide tools, nothing to buy with money, nobody to mine and smelt ore, etc etc etc. If you can imagine it then you are much closer to freedom than most. If you can do it then you are one of very very few. If you actually do do it then you will be damn near unique and in some pretty scary company. Irony abounds. The ruggged individualist that we claim to prize is usually dismissed as a weirdo. I'm almost sick of hearing people even say "freedom" anymore. So few have any grip on its meaning. So many think that liberty is freedom. It's not.

I haven't forgotten the conversation. Just taking my time cause I don't feel that there is a pressing need. The outlines are finished. I just want to water them down and make them less complete and academic. In the end, these views are not my own and I want people to get it from the source. I have yet to pick up a copy of the Whiskey Rebellion been really hung up on Locke, Hobbes, Montesquei (sp??), and Thomas Paine. I will get back to it and share it with those who care when I feel its ready. Thanks for the support. Freedom and liberty are not the same, but I would settle for liberty in today's world. We all know perfect freedom is not desirable as long as their are people who would abuse that power. Murderers should not be free to murder.

[Guest RadioFlyer]

If your looking for a good read and some evidence of the the desecration of the Constitution, I would recommend reading Judge Andrew Napolitano's books Constitutional Crisis, the Constitution in Exile, and A nation of sheep. He is a conservative and a friend of Bill O'Reilly's so some on this forum may not agree with his own personal views, but he has a lot of evidence and insight into the continued eradication of our natural rights and the police and government authorities disregard for the Constitution of the United States. His time spent serving as judge allowed him to see firsthand the lengths that the police and government will go to enforce their laws - even at the expense of breaking those same laws.

[Guest RadioFlyer]

The judge may be a friend of Bill O'Reilly, I don't know. As for being conservative, he's not. He is a self proclaimed libertarian.

[Tom Banjo]

The judge may be a friend of Bill O'Reilly, I don't know. As for being conservative, he's not. He is a self proclaimed libertarian.

I am aware of this. I think several others are. However, when we live in a two party system, most people find themselves in the Republican or Democrat category. He is a libertarian, but he is a registered Republican and therefore, considered a convservative by many. Probably an unfair assessment, but Republicans are typically considered conservative and Democrats are typically considered liberal. Thanks for the clarification. The Judge has proclaim himself a libertarian and a constitutionalist.