Just Have To Say....

[VincentPuleo]

Look: You can either go see Furthur because its awesome to see Phil and Bobby continuing the GD legacy, or you can go and see DSO because they play GD music "the way its SUPPOSED to be played". Or, you can do what I do and see them BOTH because they both offer different musical perspectives on the music we all love so much. But even if you don't want to see them both, even if you MUST pick a side, I don't see why you have to shit all over the other side? I just don't get it.

I agree..

[Stagger]

Why does everyone have to be such a seven-year-old about all of this?

"Fuck Furthur"? really?

If there's one thing I regret about the formation of Furthur, its that it has caused so many DSO-heads to act like immature, whiny little high schoolers.

What SHOULD be a great time to be a Deadhead has instead turned into "lets form factions. You're either on THIS side or THAT side".

Look: You can either go see Furthur because its awesome to see Phil and Bobby continuing the GD legacy, or you can go and see DSO because they play GD music "the way its SUPPOSED to be played". Or, you can do what I do and see them BOTH because they both offer different musical perspectives on the music we all love so much. But even if you don't want to see them both, even if you MUST pick a side, I don't see why you have to shit all over the other side? I just don't get it.

I came to this forum because it seemed to be filled with more intelligent, reasonable music fans than, say, the Philzone. Lately, though, there has been SO much hatred and vitriol and nonsense spewed here that I almost can't believe my eyes and ears. Its hard for me to believe that someone who loves Grateful Dead music could be so hateful toward ANYONE, especially a band featuring two of the Dead's original members.

Some people just HAVE to be the center of attention with their overboard negativity, I guess.

Free speech is, of course, your right. However: Why choose to exercise that right in such a negative, hurtful, immature fashion? I just don't get it.

One way or another, this darkness got to give.

[Stagger]

Also...You would think a Band member would say something to quell this bullshit as some of them have posted on MANY issues affecting the band... but, not on the Furthur issue...and not some *** Broad Disclaimer***

Which brings up another point... People who claim to "Know" Furthurs intentions IE: "They are trying to take down DSO" or "Fuck Furthur" etc... also have "Advisory Board" next to their screen names and also hang out or claim to hang out together at shows... It appears it's the same people over and over spewing the negativity (Hiding behind IMHO and free speech don't like it F- off)...

That being said "How close to the band are these people?"

Is DSO the ones telling this stuff to their Friends/Fans??

The silence from the band is starting to speak volumes....

"Remember the Band is ONLY the sum of ALL it's parts"

-Stagger

[lookyloo]

Also...You would think a Band member would say something to quell this bullshit as some of them have posted on MANY issues affecting the band... but, not on the Furthur issue...and not some *** Broad Disclaimer***

Which brings up another point... People who claim to "Know" Furthurs intentions IE: "They are trying to take down DSO" or "Fuck Furthur" etc... also have "Advisory Board" next to their screen names and also hang out or claim to hang out together at shows... It appears it's the same people over and over spewing the negativity (Hiding behind IMHO and free speech don't like it F- off)...

That being said "How close to the band are these people?"

Is DSO the ones telling this stuff to their Friends/Fans??

The silence from the band is starting to speak volumes....

"Remember the Band is ONLY the sum of ALL it's parts"

-Stagger

Silence is just that, silence. Don't read anything negative or sinister into it. The word I have received from a few memebers of the band is that DSO is fine with all discussions, Furthur, Grateful Dead, DSO, Eye of the Tiger by Survivor. Anyone who possibly visits the DSO Forums to discuss Furthur might stick around long enough to actually listen to DSO and, like the rest of us, will find out that DSO is a band beyond description. Let's have thoughtful debate, exchange of ideas, etc, but please leave the Hate Speech, the Negativity, and the Anger somewhere else.

[gr8fulpair]

[Dr. Vapor]

Some of us are closer than others because we go to 30 plus DSO shows a Year for the past 8 years....thats why we get a "little " upset over the way Furthur has gone about their program. I saw 100+ GD shows from 83 to 95 and I love the GD. But again those of us close know things changed in the later years in their camp also and people were upset. Some us feel like a doormat to Furthur and that is not always easy to take. Although my chill side says that Furthur is good for the young GD fans to see a band closer to the old Grateful Dead, I will buy that. But do they have to roll over the group that kept the spirit alive day in and day out across the country for the past 10 plus years, I dont think so. It is a small fraternity in the music industry and I believe what goes around comes around. Time will tell....Dr. V

[Stagger]

Silence is just that, silence. Don't read anything negative or sinister into it. The word I have received from a few memebers of the band is that DSO is fine with all discussions, Furthur, Grateful Dead, DSO, Eye of the Tiger by Survivor. Anyone who possibly visits the DSO Forums to discuss Furthur might stick around long enough to actually listen to DSO and, like the rest of us, will find out that DSO is a band beyond description. Let's have thoughtful debate, exchange of ideas, etc, but please leave the Hate Speech, the Negativity, and the Anger somewhere else.

Cool and I agree....

-Stagger

[Stagger]

>>> But do they have to roll over the group that kept the spirit alive day in and day out across the country for the past 10 plus years, I dont think so.

They also got paid to do it...

Now what do you say we try getting past the Us vs. Them stuff...It's poison!

-Stagger

[blythalala]

also, just to be uberclear on this issue (which is one that has come up before), the advisory forum DOES NOT reflect band opinions. we are a forum that was assembled to discuss and advise re: issues that come up regarding the forums, end of story. similarly, unless otherwise expressed (i.e., "the advisory forum feels/suggests/etc.."), one member of the advisory board does not speak for the rest; we post with our own opinions the same way everyone else does! are we friends who often agree about things? sure. but believe me when i tell you we do this board justice with our fair share of disagreement (FRIENDLY disagreement, of course) when things comes up that warrant it. so no need for advisory forum conspiracy theories, yeah?

anyway...

yay "thoughtful debate," as charnick put it.

oh, and deep breaths are awesome.

so is doing one's absolute best, particularly in the face of adversity, to be kind -- to others as well as to oneself.

that's MY opinion.

<3

peace and love to all,

blythe

[Dr. Vapor]

Stagger, If you think they DEW it for the money you are so far removed from the point.....

[comesatime]

There are a few of you that have been coming here lately just to seek out these threads and post your dislike in a fairly aggressive manner ... your post also sound like 7 year old's screaming to get their way ... we all know each other , we meet up and hang together at DSO shows and Furthur shows ... a rather large group of us from all over the country were all together at the first 3 Furthur shows in Oakland to support John and cheer on Furthur ... In my opinion you can say or support whatever you want , just stay within the parameters of civility , and screaming like a 7 year old is fine and so is a few cuss words , we're adults , let it rip , I do ... the thing that I'm getting to here is , I don't know Stagger, or this other member goganuos and have never met the gratefulauditor and I know everybody here from going to the shows ... all you are to me is these guys that pops on to defend Furthur on the DARK STAR ORCHESTRA BOARD ... so my trust and respect for what you guys have to say is very low , not to mention that your arguing against the obvious ... I will say , that I would be very pleased if you guys were to prove my feelings and what I know to be wrong ... Peace and have a Grateful day.

[jawdoc]

There are a few of you that have been coming here lately just to seek out these threads and post your dislike in a fairly aggressive manner ... your post also sound like 7 year old's screaming to get their way ... we all know each other , we meet up and hang together at DSO shows and Furthur shows ... a rather large group of us from all over the country were all together at the first 3 Furthur shows in Oakland to support John and cheer on Furthur ... In my opinion you can say or support whatever you want , just stay within the parameters of civility , and screaming like a 7 year old is fine and so is a few cuss words , we're adults , let it rip , I do ... the thing that I'm getting to here is , I don't know Stagger, or this other member goganuos and have never met the gratefulauditor and I know everybody here from going to the shows ... all you are to me is these guys that pops on to defend Furthur on the DARK STAR ORCHESTRA BOARD ... so my trust and respect for what you guys have to say is very low , not to mention that your arguing against the obvious ... I will say , that I would be very pleased if you guys were to prove my feelings and what I know to be wrong ... Peace and have a Grateful day.

"At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell

[Stagger]

Stagger, If you think they DEW it for the money you are so far removed from the point.....

Never said that or implied it...

As for being removed from the point....Really?

-Stagger

[chuckvegas]

I'm down with this and what Blythe said.

[Stagger]

There are a few of you that have been coming here lately just to seek out these threads and post your dislike in a fairly aggressive manner ... your post also sound like 7 year old's screaming to get their way ... we all know each other , we meet up and hang together at DSO shows and Furthur shows ... a rather large group of us from all over the country were all together at the first 3 Furthur shows in Oakland to support John and cheer on Furthur ... In my opinion you can say or support whatever you want , just stay within the parameters of civility , and screaming like a 7 year old is fine and so is a few cuss words , we're adults , let it rip , I do ... the thing that I'm getting to here is , I don't know Stagger, or this other member goganuos and have never met the gratefulauditor and I know everybody here from going to the shows ... all you are to me is these guys that pops on to defend Furthur on the DARK STAR ORCHESTRA BOARD ... so my trust and respect for what you guys have to say is very low , not to mention that your arguing against the obvious ... I will say , that I would be very pleased if you guys were to prove my feelings and what I know to be wrong ... Peace and have a Grateful day.

So you haven't met me...

You don't see the point of the Us vs. Them going on here as being poison?

[Tom Banjo]

This topic again. Okay, I'll bite.

I think everybody here probably has some truth in what their saying. Those expressing anger/frustration are probably only being true to their feelings. Those bashing Jill probably do know about her ill will for DSO and her extremely money motivated behavior. This isn't really a secret and we shouldn't be too harsh on her; she is after all only an American and we have based our country on capitalism and competition for the past 200 years. Those that say Phil/Jill's intent was to destroy DSO by taking JK and forming Furthur are probably right to some degree, there is probably some truth in what they are saying. I, for one, can read between the lines by their tour schedule and if the MSG dates I'm hearing are correct, Furthur certainly seems to be interested in making DSO change their plans. No conspiracy here; just looking at facts. However, those they support Phil, Bob, Jk, and Furthur can easily cite other intentions of Phil and Bob for the formation of Furthur. I certainly believe Phil and Bobby wanted to keep playing together after the Dead tour. It all depends on how you choose to look at it and what you want to believe. "You aint gonna learn what you don't want to know." All this talk of truth and what we know lately made me think once again about how elusive truth really is and that one person's truth can be different from another person's truth and yet, both can be perfectly right in holding onto their truth. I don't want to fall completely into a relative theory of truth and I do believe that their is some ultimate truth out there, but to pretend that any of us really know anything and have ascertained the truth I think is giving oneself too much credit. There is certainly more than one factor (both internally and externally) for making any one decision. Maybe Phil does want to end DSO or maybe he is placating Jill, but really just wants to play music. Truth be told, I really have no fucking idea and to be honest, I don't care.

For now on, I will express my support for DSO through positive reviews for DSO. I do not feel that expressing negativity for Furthur is really going to help DSO or is supporting DSO. I will express my support for JK and Furthur only though positive reviews for Furthur. I think we would all be better off if we continued out are debate through positive expressions. Just my 2 cent's and certainly not the only 2 cents on the subject.

Stay positive. Enjoy the music.

"If you get confused, just listen to the music play"

[fishman]

Well said Rick , see you on the 14 in Baltimore and hope to see you in Philly and Jersey .Peace Dave

[comesatime]

So you haven't met me...

You don't see the point of the Us vs. Them going on here as being poison?

If we have met , I apologize for not remembering ... seeing over 200 Grateful Dead shows were a whole lot of fun but they may be somewhat responsible for a sometimes soft memory ...

I think trying to hammer opposing thoughts into one another is becoming redundant and this does at times have a brother against brother feel to it that makes me uncomfortable , but I also think it's kind of rude to come on a fan based forum and continually cheer on a band that is obviously the competition ... to me the poison is the hand grenades that are being thrown in here by over zealous Furthur fans and people who's only desire is to stir the pot and see how high they can get the blood pressure here ... I'm not going on PhilZone or RatDog.org discussing these issues ... I'm doing it here with like minded fans of DSO and friends and the Us vs. Them is a farce , there are members here that have racked up more Furthur shows than you guys fighting the Furthur fight ...

[goganious]

Comesatime: I just wanted to quickly mention that I think its a bit ridiculous that just because you don't "know" me, you feel pretty certain that I'm some sort of Johnny-come-lately who's only here to defend Furthur. In fact, that couldn't be FURTHUR from the truth (sorry, I couldn't resist the bad pun). Being a youngster who never got to see the actual Grateful Dead, I was elated when I first discovered DSO. To me, they might as well be the real Grateful Dead. I'm just as excited when DSO comes to town as I would be if the Grateful Dead themselves (complete with a singing "touch of grey" style skeleton Jerry) came to town. After seeing a few Phil and Friends, Ratdog, and "The Dead" shows, I thought to myself "You know what Bobby and Phil really need? John Kadlecik.". I kept thinking "if its Grateful Dead music these guys want to play, why not play it with John? One day, I logged on to find out that this particular dream had come true!

John Kadlecik, the guitarst I had seen in person on many occasions and who had melted my face more times than I could count, was now going to be playing with Bobby and Phil!

Being a GD fan, I likely would have continued to see any and all projects that Bob and Phil rolled out, mainly because I respect them so much as musicians and feel privelaged to have the opportunity to see them healthy and playing the music they (and I) love. But let me be very clear: the thing I like MOST about Furthur, the MAIN reason I see them, is John Kadlecik.

That having been said, I'm still and will always be a huge DSO fan. I'm going to the Ledges this year, as I have in the past. I will also be attending several Summer shows throughout the Northeast. I will be driving as many as 5 hours to some shows, and I will be doing back-to back shows in some instances. I do what my income and my Job availability ALLOW me to do. Just because I can't get an entire month off and don't have hundreds upon hundreds of dollars to make sure I see ALL the shows on the tour does NOT mean that I'm not a "real" fan. Its great that you guys have a "clique" or a brotherhood or whatever it is. However, to insinuate that those who are outiside of this "clique" and who you don't know personally are somehow inferior or are not true DSO fans is ignorant and elitest.

I love Dark Star Orchestra. I also love Furthur. Loving both bands and supporting both bands does not make me a "bad" fan, and it does not make me in any way inferior to the "cool kids". I resent your insinuations about me, and I think there's one thing you need to remember: Phil and Bobby were/are actual MEMBERS of the Grateful Dead. To insinuate that they don't have a right to play their shows wherever they see fit (even if it means booking a show with the direct intent of competing with DSO) is to be a bit unfair, in my estimation. If you really love DSO, then please understand that if it weren't for Bobby and Phil, there would BE no DSO. Direct competition in a free market, capitalist economy is one of our country's primary ideals. I don't understand why people act like Phil and Bobby owe something to DSO and should be polite and thankful to them for "carrying the torch". Performing music may be what these guys love, but its also a BUSINESS.

This post is already longer than I intended, so I'll stop there. The point is this: its okay to enjoy both bands. Its also okay to claim your allegiance to one or the other. However, whats NOT okay is starting verbal wars and hurling insults at whichver camp you don't belong to. If there's a recurring theme in the traveling family that follows the Grateful Dead, its "love and community". Lately, I haven't been feeling either of those around these parts.

[Tom Banjo]

Comesatime: I just wanted to quickly mention that I think its a bit ridiculous that just because you don't "know" me, you feel pretty certain that I'm some sort of Johnny-come-lately who's only here to defend Furthur. In fact, that couldn't be FURTHUR from the truth (sorry, I couldn't resist the bad pun). Being a youngster who never got to see the actual Grateful Dead, I was elated when I first discovered DSO. To me, they might as well be the real Grateful Dead. I'm just as excited when DSO comes to town as I would be if the Grateful Dead themselves (complete with a singing "touch of grey" style skeleton Jerry) came to town. After seeing a few Phil and Friends, Ratdog, and "The Dead" shows, I thought to myself "You know what Bobby and Phil really need? John Kadlecik.". I kept thinking "if its Grateful Dead music these guys want to play, why not play it with John? One day, I logged on to find out that this particular dream had come true!

John Kadlecik, the guitarst I had seen in person on many occasions and who had melted my face more times than I could count, was now going to be playing with Bobby and Phil!

Being a GD fan, I likely would have continued to see any and all projects that Bob and Phil rolled out, mainly because I respect them so much as musicians and feel privelaged to have the opportunity to see them healthy and playing the music they (and I) love. But let me be very clear: the thing I like MOST about Furthur, the MAIN reason I see them, is John Kadlecik.

That having been said, I'm still and will always be a huge DSO fan. I'm going to the Ledges this year, as I have in the past. I will also be attending several Summer shows throughout the Northeast. I will be driving as many as 5 hours to some shows, and I will be doing back-to back shows in some instances. I do what my income and my Job availability ALLOW me to do. Just because I can't get an entire month off and don't have hundreds upon hundreds of dollars to make sure I see ALL the shows on the tour does NOT mean that I'm not a "real" fan. Its great that you guys have a "clique" or a brotherhood or whatever it is. However, to insinuate that those who are outiside of this "clique" and who you don't know personally are somehow inferior or are not true DSO fans is ignorant and elitest.

I love Dark Star Orchestra. I also love Furthur. Loving both bands and supporting both bands does not make me a "bad" fan, and it does not make me in any way inferior to the "cool kids". I resent your insinuations about me, and I think there's one thing you need to remember: Phil and Bobby were/are actual MEMBERS of the Grateful Dead. To insinuate that they don't have a right to play their shows wherever they see fit (even if it means booking a show with the direct intent of competing with DSO) is to be a bit unfair, in my estimation. If you really love DSO, then please understand that if it weren't for Bobby and Phil, there would BE no DSO. Direct competition in a free market, capitalist economy is one of our country's primary ideals. I don't understand why people act like Phil and Bobby owe something to DSO and should be polite and thankful to them for "carrying the torch". Performing music may be what these guys love, but its also a BUSINESS.

This post is already longer than I intended, so I'll stop there. The point is this: its okay to enjoy both bands. Its also okay to claim your allegiance to one or the other. However, whats NOT okay is starting verbal wars and hurling insults at whichver camp you don't belong to. If there's a recurring theme in the traveling family that follows the Grateful Dead, its "love and community". Lately, I haven't been feeling either of those around these parts.

Let me know what shows in the Northeast you will be doing. Hopefully, I can catch you at one of these shows and you can at least get to know one of us. If not a show, the ledges for sure.

[comesatime]

Comesatime: I just wanted to quickly mention that I think its a bit ridiculous that just because you don't "know" me, you feel pretty certain that I'm some sort of Johnny-come-lately who's only here to defend Furthur. In fact, that couldn't be FURTHUR from the truth (sorry, I couldn't resist the bad pun). Being a youngster who never got to see the actual Grateful Dead, I was elated when I first discovered DSO. To me, they might as well be the real Grateful Dead. I'm just as excited when DSO comes to town as I would be if the Grateful Dead themselves (complete with a singing "touch of grey" style skeleton Jerry) came to town. After seeing a few Phil and Friends, Ratdog, and "The Dead" shows, I thought to myself "You know what Bobby and Phil really need? John Kadlecik.". I kept thinking "if its Grateful Dead music these guys want to play, why not play it with John? One day, I logged on to find out that this particular dream had come true!

John Kadlecik, the guitarst I had seen in person on many occasions and who had melted my face more times than I could count, was now going to be playing with Bobby and Phil!

Being a GD fan, I likely would have continued to see any and all projects that Bob and Phil rolled out, mainly because I respect them so much as musicians and feel privelaged to have the opportunity to see them healthy and playing the music they (and I) love. But let me be very clear: the thing I like MOST about Furthur, the MAIN reason I see them, is John Kadlecik.

That having been said, I'm still and will always be a huge DSO fan. I'm going to the Ledges this year, as I have in the past. I will also be attending several Summer shows throughout the Northeast. I will be driving as many as 5 hours to some shows, and I will be doing back-to back shows in some instances. I do what my income and my Job availability ALLOW me to do. Just because I can't get an entire month off and don't have hundreds upon hundreds of dollars to make sure I see ALL the shows on the tour does NOT mean that I'm not a "real" fan. Its great that you guys have a "clique" or a brotherhood or whatever it is. However, to insinuate that those who are outiside of this "clique" and who you don't know personally are somehow inferior or are not true DSO fans is ignorant and elitest.

I love Dark Star Orchestra. I also love Furthur. Loving both bands and supporting both bands does not make me a "bad" fan, and it does not make me in any way inferior to the "cool kids". I resent your insinuations about me, and I think there's one thing you need to remember: Phil and Bobby were/are actual MEMBERS of the Grateful Dead. To insinuate that they don't have a right to play their shows wherever they see fit (even if it means booking a show with the direct intent of competing with DSO) is to be a bit unfair, in my estimation. If you really love DSO, then please understand that if it weren't for Bobby and Phil, there would BE no DSO. Direct competition in a free market, capitalist economy is one of our country's primary ideals. I don't understand why people act like Phil and Bobby owe something to DSO and should be polite and thankful to them for "carrying the torch". Performing music may be what these guys love, but its also a BUSINESS.

This post is already longer than I intended, so I'll stop there. The point is this: its okay to enjoy both bands. Its also okay to claim your allegiance to one or the other. However, whats NOT okay is starting verbal wars and hurling insults at whichver camp you don't belong to. If there's a recurring theme in the traveling family that follows the Grateful Dead, its "love and community". Lately, I haven't been feeling either of those around these parts.

Your not shitin that's a long post ... enjoy the music bruh !!! and please forgive my distrust ... past issues cause me to be on guard with new members and OLDER members that I haven't met ... if your an actual person with cares and concern for the music of the Grateful Dead and not someones alter ego ... Welcome To The Forum and I Hope To Meet You At A Show !!!

[fishman]

I really didn't want to get into the BULLSHIT ,enjoy whatever makes you HAPPY , feel your own feelings and just enjoy the day . I know this is a DSO forum and DSO ROCKS .IMO FURTHUR should get it's OWN forum and that will STOP alot of the BS.

[comesatime]

and where the fuck is Herdy ??? we're all going at it and he's nowhere to be found !!! WTF ...

[Tom Banjo]

Well said Rick , see you on the 14 in Baltimore and hope to see you in Philly and Jersey .Peace Dave

I'm sure we will cross paths Dave. Hope all is well.

[Dr. Barry]

Whoa now. I can handle Furthur playing MSG, but does anyone really want to see KC and the Sunshine Band?

Actually, I think that would be alot of fun as an opening act for Furthur!

And to back up Blythe, everyone should know that the Advisory Board really and truly is nothing more than a group that TR put together way back when to help make decisions about the operation of the Forums.

I hope it is obvious that the Advisory Board is VERY hands off when it comes to day to day Forums policy. Clearly free speech is alive and well around here. We comment more on how things look, style, etc.

Anyone posting that has Advisory Board under their name is doing it as an individual, expressing their own opinions like we all do around here. Personally I have no inside line on what the band is thinking about anything, I'm just a fan like everyone else.

As far as band "silence" goes...

1. There are several layers of disconnect between the band and the Advisory Board that essentially boils down to there being NO relationship at all between them. First off, the Forums is a fan created site created by TR, not the band. It is privately run and funded as a tribute to DSO and all of their fans, but in no way run, or sanctioned by the band. Second, the Advisory Board was created by TR to help him with the Forums, and that's all. So even though a few people on the Advisory Board are close to the band, they are by no means speaking for the band, or sanctioned to speak for the band. They are just speaking their own minds, and as a result there is no need for the band to feel any responsibility for what they say, or the need to make comment on it. That is the truth.

2. My speculation (no insider knowledge) is that there is no "official statement" to make. If there is some bad blood between both bands there is no good reason to comment on that in public. Like Mom always said (and how appropriate on Mothers Day) "if you have nothing good to say, then keep it to yourself". Also there is the point that attention to Furthur can have a positive impact on DSO as some people will discover what we already know and become fans. And when does the band ever really come out with "official statements" about anything? Who is the band's spokesperson? How do we know they even have a position or a consensus about this stuff?

I hope that here on the DSO Forums we can stay positive and focused on DSO. This is a site created and run by people who love DSO. It is inevitable that there will be some bad feelings as people who really love DSO feel that "their" band is being slighted, targeted and/or hurt on purpose by Furthur. After all this is a DSO site, not an all things GD related site. While the GD and DSO are inextricably intertwined, they are not the same. Many people who really love and support DSO are into more than the music alone, they are into the people who make up DSO, band, crew and family. So it's more than a shared musical legacy between the GD, DSO and Furthur. It's also a personal relationship that the fans have with DSO, something that I felt early on and for me really drove my appreciation for the band and what they do. Live and let live? Sure. Different strokes for different folks? Sure. But some people will react with anger and come to the defense of the band and the people that they have come to think of as more than just musicians and keepers of the flame, especially when they feel that they are being bullied or abused by the bigger kid in the playground.

Dr. B