I Guess It Was Inevitable...

[Pugdog]

Here Comes Sunshine.

[EastCoastWest]

I completely concur with the takes that two expressions can and will exist here on the boards as it does when we are just standing together in a parking lot bantering about things we are all passionate about; I will express my take based on my experience while maintaining respect for your take & in fact want & need yours, as it would be really boring without it...what I realize is happening about this discussion is the product of a good thing...we are so passionate about this music and this band and it is so important to us that, I know for me, I feel protective of it...what I try to remember for myself is to just trust the process, turn it over to the powers that be (in this case, DSO & God....not neccesarily in that order :~) ) & enjoy this process...I'm watching & experienceing the evolution of this band first hand...I've attended the shows from Wed. night El Rey through last night, Belly Up & there has been a lot of discussion about this at the shows, as you would imagine...& reading some of the takes here it is clear that all I have to go off of is my own experience....before these shows, I listened to Jeff's show's on the Archive (have not seen him live) and was blown away as well & thought, wow...he's the man, this will be OK (post John)...then I saw Stu, Live, four nights in a row, front stage where I could feel what you feel up there and so the comparison is certainly no longer level...I lean Stu because I saw him & he was amazing and also, the man. As someone expressed here somewhere..I feel fortunate & yes, Grateful to have what we WharfRats would call a "high-end" problem...two great guitarists...I loved Stu, but will be happy either way as the decision, in my mind will be the right one made by the right people~

[Guest prideofcucamunga]

In a way its selfish that Weir and Lesh would go and steal the jerry guy from DSO, and put the DSO's promotional status in jeopardy, the current members of DSO have dedicated their time to this thing, and as a group are way more on the money than Furthur is musically. On the other hand, its a blessing to let John K go, and face off with the inevitable swapping out of players that DSO will have in the years to come.

My guess is that Mattsen will be the main guitarist for the spot, and Allen will fill in when Jeff can't make it. Either way, the truth is that DSO has always been a rotating band member team. The Grateful Dead were around for 30 years, and eventually the current DSO line-up will slide away from the long touring months to go have children, or they will just be burned out and pass the torch off to the next generation. Thirty years from now DSO will be the 15-20 year olds that are in the front row cheering them on. Its a beautiful thing that this music is being passed along not only via listening, but by getting on a bus and driving around the countryside living it.

-John K can sing well, and has a very good guitar tone, but his guitar playing and ability to peak the jams is poor. He would never had been able to teach a young kid how to play because his style is not Garcia's style, its something he must have invented, it works OK for him but its not within the traditional guitar language that Garcia's was. This guy needs to watch his ego, which could eventually bring him down like a house of cards.

-Stu can sing well, but his guitar tone, even after all the gear he bought and wired, is still thin and anemic, his guitar playing is good, and he could easily teach a kid how to play, because he is following Garcia's style of right and left hand playing, but he can't peak the jams, and the volume of material is way over his head. This guy needs to play a heck of a lot more with DSO to climb out of his head and get passionate about it, its really holding him back.

-Jeff can't sing that well, and his guitar tone is the worst of all three, but he peaks the jams with authority, and his playing style is just like Garcia's style, he too could teach a kid how to play easily. He's a veteran of the game. But this guy needs to watch out for the one-trick-pony leads that he slips into, he's played so much that it gets more difficult to be genuine night after night.

What does all that mean? We miss you Jerry Garcia!

[comesatime]

Well the first days are the hardest days,

Don't you worry any more, 'Cause when life looks like easy

Street, there is danger at your door.

Think this through with me, let me know your mind.

Woh - oh, what I want to know, is are you kind?

It's a buck dancer's choice my friend; better take my advice.

You know all the rules by now and the fire from ice.

Will you come with me, won't you come with me?

Woh - oh, what I want to know, will you come with me?

Goddamn, well I declare, have you seen the like?

Their walls are built of cannonballs, their motto is

Don't tread on me. Come hear Uncle John's Band playing

To the tide, come with me, or go alone.

It's the same story the crow told me;

It's the only one he knows.

Like the morning sun you come and like the wind you go.

Ain't no time to hate, barely time to wait,

Woh - oh, what I want to know, where does the time go?

I live in a silver mine and I call it Beggar's Tomb;

I got me a violin and I beg you call the tune

Anybody's choice, I can hear your voice.

Woh - oh, what I want to know, how does the song go?

Come hear the Uncle John's Band by the riverside

Got some things to talk about, here beside the risin' tide

Come hear Uncle John's Band playing to the tide,

Come on along, or go alone,

He's come to take his children home.

Woh - oh, what I want to know, how does the song go?

Come hear Uncle John's Band by the riverside,

Got some things to talk about here beside the risin' tide.

Come hear Uncle John's Band playing to the tide, come on

Along or go alone, he's come to take his children home.

[Herdygerdy]

What does all that mean? We miss you Jerry Garcia!

+1

[John A]

Pride, interesting analysis, a lot of which seems spot on. But the comment with regard to JK that "his guitar playing and ability to peak the jams is poor" is somewhat of a head scratcher.

[comesatime]

Pride, interesting analysis, a lot of which seems spot on. But the comment with regard to JK that "his guitar playing and ability to peak the jams is poor" is somewhat of a head scratcher.

I thought John was amazing with DSO ... Stu and Jeff are in a league of their own also !!!

[Guest prideofcucamunga]

Pride, interesting analysis, a lot of which seems spot on. But the comment with regard to JK that "his guitar playing and ability to peak the jams is poor" is somewhat of a head scratcher.

Hey John A, I can understand why it might be a head scratcher for some, especially for listeners... are you a listener? or a guitar player? I come from a big family, and everyone plays an instrument. I have been playing and teaching guitar for 15 years, never got to see Jerry, but my older brothers did, alot... They also have a bunch of video footage of Garcia, and watching him play guitar shows clearly an "economy of motion" especially with his left hand. This technique is nothing new to playing the guitar, its outlined in most guitar study books, and is cleary used by Mattsen and Allen, but is not shown by Kadlecik. I understand Kadlecik to be a violin player and a mandolin player, I have never heard him play either, but I have heard and seen him close up playing the guitar, I don't know how he learned or who he learned from or maybe he taught himself, but his manner of playing chords, running leads, etc. is foreign, its not economical, and could not be taught to a kid. It works to a point, but there's alot of growth that cannot be attained when your uneconomical about playing the guitar.

My point is that, if you do not have an economy of motion in playing the guitar, its going to be a battle to get around the fingerboard, and that battle can consume your intention, to the point that you don't give yourself a chance to "peak the jam". Take Eaton for example, he is the exact opposite, he is a very economical player, and when I watch him, I can see what positional chord formation he is working out of, for example. With Kadlecik, up close, I can never understand what the heck position he's in... and watching him navigate the fingerboard is painful, even though his result is pretty good.

I brought up this issue 10 years ago to Scott Larned, and he confirmed that Kadlecik did not have the chops on guitar, but he sounded so much like Garcia vocally, that Scott was hoping he would come around on guitar. Kadlecik is clearly the best Garcia voice out there, but guitar-wise he's got a long way to go.

I have heard Mattsen "peak the jam" many times, it comes naturally to him...

I have not heard Allen "peak the jam" yet, although he has an economy of motion that would enable him to grow as a guitarist, and learn how to peak it. I listened to that "Deal" that was posted somewhere here on this board, of Allen with DSO... You wanna hear a band peak the jam on deal? listen to our own local band "Play Dead", listen to the end of "Deal": http://www.myspace.com/playdeadhumboldt

I have never heard Kadlecik with DSO or Furthur peak the jam like that, if you have a link, I would gladly give it a listen

peace

[Herdygerdy]

"Peak the Jam".... I like it!

Never heard that reference before...

[acududeman]

Hey John A, I can understand why it might be a head scratcher for some, especially for listeners... are you a listener? or a guitar player? I come from a big family, and everyone plays an instrument. I have been playing and teaching guitar for 15 years, never got to see Jerry, but my older brothers did, alot... They also have a bunch of video footage of Garcia, and watching him play guitar shows clearly an "economy of motion" especially with his left hand. This technique is nothing new to playing the guitar, its outlined in most guitar study books, and is cleary used by Mattsen and Allen, but is not shown by Kadlecik. I understand Kadlecik to be a violin player and a mandolin player, I have never heard him play either, but I have heard and seen him close up playing the guitar, I don't know how he learned or who he learned from or maybe he taught himself, but his manner of playing chords, running leads, etc. is foreign, its not economical, and could not be taught to a kid. It works to a point, but there's alot of growth that cannot be attained when your uneconomical about playing the guitar.

My point is that, if you do not have an economy of motion in playing the guitar, its going to be a battle to get around the fingerboard, and that battle can consume your intention, to the point that you don't give yourself a chance to "peak the jam". Take Eaton for example, he is the exact opposite, he is a very economical player, and when I watch him, I can see what positional chord formation he is working out of, for example. With Kadlecik, up close, I can never understand what the heck position he's in... and watching him navigate the fingerboard is painful, even though his result is pretty good.

I brought up this issue 10 years ago to Scott Larned, and he confirmed that Kadlecik did not have the chops on guitar, but he sounded so much like Garcia vocally, that Scott was hoping he would come around on guitar. Kadlecik is clearly the best Garcia voice out there, but guitar-wise he's got a long way to go.

I have heard Mattsen "peak the jam" many times, it comes naturally to him...

I have not heard Allen "peak the jam" yet, although he has an economy of motion that would enable him to grow as a guitarist, and learn how to peak it. I listened to that "Deal" that was posted somewhere here on this board, of Allen with DSO... You wanna hear a band peak the jam on deal? listen to our own local band "Play Dead", listen to the end of "Deal": http://www.myspace.com/playdeadhumboldt

I have never heard Kadlecik with DSO or Furthur peak the jam like that, if you have a link, I would gladly give it a listen

peace

Well, I am not a guitar player. I am a drummer who is also a most discerning listener of all instruments on a stage.

I certainly do not agree with you that JK is lacking in his guitar skills. I saw him play with DSO over 50 times (I also caught roughly 35 GD shows), and he peaked my sober ass right over the cliff on many an occasion.

I will also say that Mattson did the same thing in spades last NYE in Baltimore.......I think he sent my sober ass to Mars and back a couple of times!

Your criticism of JK's left hand reminds me of good old BOOTSY a few years back with his endless rant about "hand shapes" and such. I realize that technique is important to a degree for any musician, but for me I'll take an ounce of straight up heart 'n' soul over a mountain of technique any night of the week.

In my experience, both JK & JM have the heart and soul to get me off with their guitar work big time. I do agree whole-heartedly that JK is THE MAN vocally.

ciao, reid.

[William Shatner]

Hey John A, I can understand why it might be a head scratcher for some, especially for listeners... are you a listener? or a guitar player? I come from a big family, and everyone plays an instrument. I have been playing and teaching guitar for 15 years, never got to see Jerry, but my older brothers did, alot... They also have a bunch of video footage of Garcia, and watching him play guitar shows clearly an "economy of motion" especially with his left hand. This technique is nothing new to playing the guitar, its outlined in most guitar study books, and is cleary used by Mattsen and Allen, but is not shown by Kadlecik. I understand Kadlecik to be a violin player and a mandolin player, I have never heard him play either, but I have heard and seen him close up playing the guitar, I don't know how he learned or who he learned from or maybe he taught himself, but his manner of playing chords, running leads, etc. is foreign, its not economical, and could not be taught to a kid. It works to a point, but there's alot of growth that cannot be attained when your uneconomical about playing the guitar.

My point is that, if you do not have an economy of motion in playing the guitar, its going to be a battle to get around the fingerboard, and that battle can consume your intention, to the point that you don't give yourself a chance to "peak the jam". Take Eaton for example, he is the exact opposite, he is a very economical player, and when I watch him, I can see what positional chord formation he is working out of, for example. With Kadlecik, up close, I can never understand what the heck position he's in... and watching him navigate the fingerboard is painful, even though his result is pretty good.

I brought up this issue 10 years ago to Scott Larned, and he confirmed that Kadlecik did not have the chops on guitar, but he sounded so much like Garcia vocally, that Scott was hoping he would come around on guitar. Kadlecik is clearly the best Garcia voice out there, but guitar-wise he's got a long way to go.

I have heard Mattsen "peak the jam" many times, it comes naturally to him...

I have not heard Allen "peak the jam" yet, although he has an economy of motion that would enable him to grow as a guitarist, and learn how to peak it. I listened to that "Deal" that was posted somewhere here on this board, of Allen with DSO... You wanna hear a band peak the jam on deal? listen to our own local band "Play Dead", listen to the end of "Deal": http://www.myspace.com/playdeadhumboldt

I have never heard Kadlecik with DSO or Furthur peak the jam like that, if you have a link, I would gladly give it a listen

peace

This.is

what

we.call.a

total.

load.of.crap.

Beam.me.up.Jerry,

Kirk.out

[redeyedbert]

I brought up this issue 10 years ago to Scott Larned, and he confirmed that Kadlecik did not have the chops on guitar, but he sounded so much like Garcia vocally, that Scott was hoping he would come around on guitar. Kadlecik is clearly the best Garcia voice out there, but guitar-wise he's got a long way to go.

peace

For sure. Who hasn't thought when JK was in DSO, man I wish he had the chops on guitar? I mean the singing is good but these jams aren

[John A]

...but for me I'll take an ounce of straight up heart 'n' soul over a mountain of technique any night of the week.

Well said. (And with Garcia, the heart 'n' soul was measured in tons, not ounces.)

But to answer Pride's question, I'm a listener, not a player. I can't speak to the "economy of motion" concept, but I can say something about "economy of notes". Garcia's playing demonstrated that in spades, and Kadlecik is well versed in the concept as well.

[comesatime]

smells fishy ...

[Tom Banjo]

Well, I went to check guitar lesson books about economy of motion and sure enough it is widely taught concept. If one wants to increase the speed at which ones plays, left hand finger movement needs to be done with as little movement as possible and right hand picking movements need to be short and concise. A longer picking motion will prevent one from speeding up ones playing without making the motions smaller. However, several of the books also state that a larger picking motion or slower economy of motion in the left hand can be extremely important in achieving the right tone. JK appears extremely interested in capturing the right tone. Hopefully, an actual guitar player can really explain this. I was only able to get a little bit of information out of a couple beginner and intermediate teach yourself guitar books.

I, for one, believe JK is incredible at peaking the jams regardless of his technique and I have every reason to believe he will be doing so tonight.

[comesatime]

For sure. Who hasn't thought when JK was in DSO, man I wish he had the chops on guitar? I mean the singing is good but these jams aren't peaking.

Thought about it all the time ...

[Ed Holub]

Economy of Motion - what all Jerry wannabe's are looking for. Basically, being able to play lead within the same 4-5 fret box. It is very difficult to do, because you can't simply play one scale. You have to know your arpeggios cold, as well as every possible inversion thereof. Jer makes it look so easy.

[Guest deliverance]

Hey John A, I can understand why it might be a head scratcher for some, especially for listeners... are you a listener? or a guitar player? I come from a big family, and everyone plays an instrument. I have been playing and teaching guitar for 15 years, never got to see Jerry, but my older brothers did, alot... They also have a bunch of video footage of Garcia, and watching him play guitar shows clearly an "economy of motion" especially with his left hand. This technique is nothing new to playing the guitar, its outlined in most guitar study books, and is cleary used by Mattsen and Allen, but is not shown by Kadlecik. I understand Kadlecik to be a violin player and a mandolin player, I have never heard him play either, but I have heard and seen him close up playing the guitar, I don't know how he learned or who he learned from or maybe he taught himself, but his manner of playing chords, running leads, etc. is foreign, its not economical, and could not be taught to a kid. It works to a point, but there's alot of growth that cannot be attained when your uneconomical about playing the guitar.

My point is that, if you do not have an economy of motion in playing the guitar, its going to be a battle to get around the fingerboard, and that battle can consume your intention, to the point that you don't give yourself a chance to "peak the jam". Take Eaton for example, he is the exact opposite, he is a very economical player, and when I watch him, I can see what positional chord formation he is working out of, for example. With Kadlecik, up close, I can never understand what the heck position he's in... and watching him navigate the fingerboard is painful, even though his result is pretty good.

I brought up this issue 10 years ago to Scott Larned, and he confirmed that Kadlecik did not have the chops on guitar, but he sounded so much like Garcia vocally, that Scott was hoping he would come around on guitar. Kadlecik is clearly the best Garcia voice out there, but guitar-wise he's got a long way to go.

I have heard Mattsen "peak the jam" many times, it comes naturally to him...

I have not heard Allen "peak the jam" yet, although he has an economy of motion that would enable him to grow as a guitarist, and learn how to peak it. I listened to that "Deal" that was posted somewhere here on this board, of Allen with DSO... You wanna hear a band peak the jam on deal? listen to our own local band "Play Dead", listen to the end of "Deal": http://www.myspace.c...laydeadhumboldt

I have never heard Kadlecik with DSO or Furthur peak the jam like that, if you have a link, I would gladly give it a listen

peace

this here is the biggest load a poo I ever did see. you need to come in out the rain , boy .

[PK1]

DEAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyHTxSiCTNE&feature=PlayList&p=DCC71AAA1E88B1FB&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=17

John

Stu

http://www.youtube.com/user/zzzzzz1000#p/u/140/JVheEdXCqM4

Jeff

love to hear these guys play. period. each is unique.

[Tom Banjo]

I don't know shit.

Go to the shows.

This is an edited statement.

[Guest Rob Eaton]

In reality it's all about the music and not about economics. If the band is not playing well or unhappy playing then what is the point? It's all about the music and will always be about the music. If the music is good people will come...... Popular opinion means very little to me.

[just a dream]

[it is pleasant to have a forum where the band members participate. Thanks Rob]. After many Dead shows in the 70's, I took a break after 11/6/77, and went to see them twice they were near my town in 1981 and 1982. Weir had apparently, by my standards of the time, been replaced with someone less heartfelt and not as into the raw power of spontaneous music, and Garcia with someone with a weird sounding guitar who didn't jam as gloriously free between songs. I then 'retired' until 2006, when I saw DSO, Phil and Friends [with Joan Osborne breaking the sky open with Morning Dew], and Ratdog, and I again felt the excitement again of 'inward hiking' with amazing musicians. There are people that talk very loud to each other over Dark Star, sing out loud badly, fall drunkenly and spill beer on you during Morning Dew, try to take your seat, push, say rude things to women-these are the reasons I would go less, as the crowd seems to get younger and more oblivious to others and to the depth of the possibilities present in these shows. Otherwise, John, Jeff, Stu, and so many unknown local guitarists playing this music with the equally important other musicians of DSO, Furthur, and countless other bands truly keeping the light alive is very special. Let what you receive from these shows pass through you to your work, home life, chance meetings, this discussion board, etc. and shine clearly as well as you practice your life.

[Tom Banjo]

In reality it's all about the music and not about economics. If the band is not playing well or unhappy playing then what is the point? It's all about the music and will always be about the music. If the music is good people will come...... Popular opinion means very little to me.

Rob

Your right. If the music is good, it could be a group of monkey's playing. We would all come and keep coming back. I have faith that whatever decision is made it will keep us coming back. Thanks for your input and let me make it clear I wasn't supporting any one lead guitarist just simply saying we get to vote after the decision is made. I think the members of this forum and the members of DSO know full well they can count on my continued support.

[Gus B]

From what I heard and they are both anonymous and unsure and speculating to come to there opinion, but it appears some members of the band are set on JM and others at least want to give Stu another run.

DSO and JK will not reunite. It does not appear that JK or the members of DSO desire this...

Therefore, it is Jeff, Stu, or someone else. I feel are opinions are important regardless of whether the band thinks so. We make the most important decision in the music business - we buy tickets and spend money. Unfortunately, DSO does not have a clear favorite in the economical sense and have shown an inclination to do what they feel is best for the band outside of economic implications. I will support DSO in whatever decision they make - they our all top notch musicians playing GD music at a level unheard of sense the GD.

However, the choice may impact how hard I tour with this band. DSO could be a full tour band or 4 night run band. The lead guitarist will determine this. Either way. Long live DSO

Wow! rickE leave it alone and don't lose that number.....got lots of knowledge and throwing rumors around. I would suggest, since you make the "most important decisions" in the music business, you get in the music biz and you might change your tune! Let the boys who know the band better than you make the right decision for us. You could never determine the economic impact of one over the other and i'm not sure (I don't know nothin') but I don't think they couldn't either. The point is mute. As Eaton says it has to be about the music because you can't quantify the economics, unless you have some matrix in your research of the music business that we don't know about. How long you been touring young man? Sounds like a personal problem if the lead guitarist determines how much touring you do.

[Muddy Waters]

Man you cant' go wrong with any of those version of Deal. Looking at those back to back to back was a fun experience.

The only area where I see one of these 3 a notch above is in the area of guitar sound..J.K. being an electronics geek (term of endearment)....at least on the surface from my ear he was able to dial in the guitar sound from different eras in a seamless manner..It always appeared as though was completely dialed in with his instrument and all the eclectronics both inside and outside of his guitar..I do realize alot of this relates to the over all quality and emphasis the band puts into sound..

It may be premature, but I may be at one or two shows on the Midwest summer run...Des Moines, DeKalb etc. Will Jeff be playing guitar at these gigs? If you know..