Forum MVP VincentPuleo Posted March 15, 2010 Author Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 In my opinion.... there is no way the Grateful Dead could have gone on without Phil... If they had any normal bass player the music would have lost that beautiful space... Jerry, Bobby & Phil were equally important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advisory Board Dr. Barry Posted March 15, 2010 Advisory Board Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 my fervent hope is that you and the other hate posters are not representing the band. I'm definately not a "hate poster" and I am sorry that you see me that way. I don't post that often and I do try to be honest with my feelings while being thoughtful and respectful of others. I almost never reply to comments on my own posts just to avoid "tit for tat" stuff. I am replying to your post for the following reason; I absolutely DO NOT represent the band in any way. I have no idea what their thoughts are on anything. Also, I do not represent the DSO Forums either, just me. Dr. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP chuckvegas Posted March 15, 2010 Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 I wish to make my opinion on one subject clear beyond any shadow of a doubt: Dr. Barry is not a member of any hater, basher, denigrater, or other [insert synonym here] group. Reasonable minds can differ on many topics, and the diversity within the DSO scene and the larger GD world does credit to the music and all those who love it. But disagreements arise, and when positions are stated with conviction and perhaps express disappointment tinged with cynicism, that does not automatically mean the person making the comments is asserting a position filled with negativity that rises to the level of "hatred." I have my opinions about much that is transpiring in this wondrous realm. On the whole, I keep them to myself, or at least off this board. They are not germane to most of what is posted here. But this I believe. Dr. Barry is absolutely not part of any ingredient or combination of factors that would lead to the destruction of DSO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Bluebird Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 If there is even a slight possibility that part of the game plan in getting JK to join Furthur was to hurt DSO (as some have alluded to on these Forums, that does seem far fetched and I hope is not accurate), Then, Maybe there is an argument for not having that stuff around here. Dr. B as some have alluded to on these forums. those allusions began with your post on divorce etiquette. every once in a while you pop up to make sure that nobody gets complacent and comfortable with the bands coming to an understanding. if there is even a slight possibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drpinky Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 All this discussion of Phil is making me bounce back and forth like a ping pong ball. I suspect it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonomajon Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 I enjoyed your post....but: "But the beauty of the grateful dead was a sense of collegiality and respect in which there were no leaders" I beg to differ...I believe Jerry was the undeniable leader of the band...albeit a mantle he never sought or publicly acknowledged...In the last few years of his decline this may be disputed but for the better part of 25 years it was obvious... at least to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Bluebird Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 I propose that we amend the constitution to make the inappropriate vocalization of a Garcia/Hunter song a musical crime, with penalties varying according to the severity of the violation. One way or another One way or another One way or another This darkness got to give Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Waters Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Jerry, Bobby & Phil were equally important. I would disagree slightly withthat notion..I love Phil but I think he could have been replaced..I also disagree with Dr. B, that Pigpen was ever as integral as Jerry although an argument can certainly be make along those lines... Similar to Lennon and McCartney, Jagger - Richards......and will use a formerly local example (because I can) Jeff Tweedy and Jay Farrar.... Without both it could never be the Beatles, Rolling Stones or Uncle Tupelo... Similar in my opinion to the "Grateful" Dead...Maybe not equal in talent and artistc vision (nod to garcia), but the sum their parts was just exactly perfect.... By the way I will stand up for Dr. Barry although I have never had the pleasure of meeting him...He is the antithesis of a hater from the thoughtful posts of his that I have read...Way off the mark there Sister B...Respectfully... BI propose that we amend the constitution to make the inappropriate vocalization of a Garcia/Hunter song a musical crime, with penalties varying according to the severity of the violation. That way minor infractions like the alternating vocals in Mississipi Uptown Todaloo or Terapin would just get a slap on the wrist, whereas more heinous violations such as recent versions of Comes a Time, Row Jimmy or Black Peter would result in at least a few days in the hoosekow. I would also propose substantial fines for Shatnerization, but no additional jail time. This might be easier to implement than you'd think. After all, it could be a bipartisan effort, supported by deadheads on both sides of the aisle. Patrick Leahy and Harry Reid can provide key support in the Senate, while Nancy Pelosi can guide the resolution through the house. Meanwhile the conservative voices of Tucker Carlson and Anne Coulter can be used neutralize some of the more conservative legislators. ... No, I’m not really serious. But fantasy and humor sometimes provides a brief escape from the injustice of reality. Brilliant!!!! LMAO but you actually may have something there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP VincentPuleo Posted March 15, 2010 Author Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Maybe not equal in talent and artistc vision (nod to garcia), but the sum their parts was just exactly perfect.... the three were equally important to the sound of the Grateful Dead... if Phil was replaced, unless the new bass player was told to study Phil's playing and do what he does, the Grateful Dead's sound would not have evolved to the amazing point it did. Phil is seriously a genius when it comes to playing the electric bass. I say that as someone who also studies the instrument. I truly believe he would have been irreplaceable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deadheadmike Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 the three were equally important to the sound of the Grateful Dead... if Phil was replaced, unless the new bass player was told to study Phil's playing and do what he does, the Grateful Dead's sound would not have evolved to the amazing point it did. Phil is seriously a genius when it comes to playing the electric bass. I say that as someone who also studies the instrument. I truly believe he would have been irreplaceable. 2 names come right to mind - John Kahn and Jack Casady... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drpinky Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 I beg to differ...I believe Jerry was the undeniable leader of the band...albeit a mantle he never sought or publicly acknowledged...In the last few years of his decline this may be disputed but for the better part of 25 years it was obvious... at least to me... I guess that depends on how you define a leader. Perhaps he was the leader as far as fans were concerned, but as far as the band was concerned, I don't think he made more money, chose the setlist, or dominated the vocals. And while no one could deny Garcia's magic, there was an ethos of equality in the band that was integral to their collective persona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonomajon Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 I guess that depends on how you define a leader. Perhaps he was the leader as far as fans were concerned, but as far as the band was concerned, I don't think he made more money, chose the setlist, or dominated the vocals. And while no one could deny Garcia's magic, there was an ethos of equality in the band that was integral to their collective persona. I wasn't referring to the fans love of Jerry...and money had nothing to do with it...Jerry was an articulate, intelligent, natural born leader. We'll just have to agree to disagree...He led the band onstage and steered much of the energy off stage as well...did you ever see the video of the Built to Last sessions where JG was working with BK on his drum part? Unfortunately it is no longer available but it spoke volumes as to who was steering that ship of fools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutrino Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Regarding this discussion of the "leader of the band", I would have to say that Jerry never took the kind of role that Phil does today. This business of Phil speaking to the band members through their earpieces in concert to tell them what to do next is completely antithetical to the way the Grateful Dead operated. This is apparantly the way Phil like to run things. Personally, it puts me off to see Phil doing this, but my opinion is of little importance. However, it was most certainly not Jerry's way of "leading the band" musically. I feel that one reason that the GD were IMO the most creative live band in rock history was the kind of chaotic interaction that often occured between the members. Different members could take the band in a another direction in midsong. Often, there was resistance, and you never knew who would prevail. I can still remember Jerry and Bob looking at each other while each one tried to move in different directions. Jerry would not have a problem losing the argument on many occasions. Perhaps he won more of these than Bobby or Phil, but it never felt like Jerry was the boss. I don't feel that this happens with Phil's bands--at least in the past few years. Regarding Phil's importance to the GD--Jerry once said something pretty close to "When Phil's happening, the band is happening. He is incredibly important." I have no reason to think otherwise. However, the GD were always to me greater than the sum of the parts. Now that Jerry is gone, I think Furthur would be better served by phil letting go of some his apparant need to be the boss. Perhaps this is what actually has happened on Furthur's best nights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deadheadmike Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Good post Dr. B. Two comments.....I hear what you're saying about the potential guests, but your lists gets pretty outlandish! Second, either I misread your intent, or you just put Phil in a Grateful Dead hierarchy behind Brent Mydland. Brent added vocals and keyboards to the band that IMHO helped to define the GD 80's sound ... he probably also had something to do with the commercial and financial success they enjoyed during the second half of the 80's and Brent might have played a part along with the rest of the band that made it extremely hard to get tickets to all those 80.000 plus seating stadium sell outs ... just my opinion ... it can't be denied that Phil is an incredible bass player and of course is a founding member of the original GD ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP nwnj steve Posted March 16, 2010 Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 the way I will stand up for Dr. Barry although I have never had the pleasure of meeting him... I have had the pleasure of meeting him ,eating peking duck w/ him ,having some of the best dam ribs at grateful fest w/ him & I gotta tell you I love this man,what a stand up guy!!!can't wait till we cook once again together Dr. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawdoc Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 On a lighter note maybe Phil should have invited Rob E, Rob K, Rob B, Kevin, Dino, and Lisa. What a show Also sorry about calling some posts lame. I should just accept that Furthur is really the Phil Lesh Orchestra. Headphones included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP John A Posted March 16, 2010 Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 the three were equally important to the sound of the Grateful Dead... if Phil was replaced, unless the new bass player was told to study Phil's playing and do what he does, the Grateful Dead's sound would not have evolved to the amazing point it did. Phil is seriously a genius when it comes to playing the electric bass. I say that as someone who also studies the instrument. I truly believe he would have been irreplaceable. No one was as important to the Grateful Dead's sound as Garcia. although of course all 3 were pivotal in creating it. But I agree with the rest; Phil is a musical genius to the core. I actually point to the interplay between Phil and Jerry as the single most essential defining element to the Dead's sound, and you could say Phil played a pretty important role in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonomajon Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 No one was as important to the Grateful Dead's sound as Garcia. although of course all 3 were pivotal in creating it. But I agree with the rest; Phil is a musical genius to the core. I actually point to the interplay between Phil and Jerry as the single most essential defining element to the Dead's sound, and you could say Phil played a pretty important role in that. Absolutely...bookends...especially early on..."you who choose...to lead must follow"...I really do appreciate the "discussions" that occur on this board...they are devoid of inane comments for the most part and I'm very grateful to be a part of this community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Dstone5553 Posted March 16, 2010 Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 I guess that depends on how you define a leader. Perhaps he was the leader as far as fans were concerned, but as far as the band was concerned, I don't think he made more money, chose the setlist, or dominated the vocals. And while no one could deny Garcia's magic, there was an ethos of equality in the band that was integral to their collective persona. I haven't read the last few pages of this thread-- just Sonomajon's and the quote above and my thoughts are this. By the time Pigpen had passed away it seems pretty clear, at least to me, that Garcia was the musical leader of this band. All the different members fearlessly followed him into the depths of hell or the heights of nirvana or any of a galaxy of places in between. Sure, there were moments where Phil was dictating the path or Brent or Keith or Bob or Billy, and the biggest moments were when the band was acting as a single being and the music was just coming out of their pores, playing them if you will...but Garcia was the one who led the way when all was said and done--even though I'm sure he'd be the last person to publicly acknowledge that. I get the whole leaderless thing but it's hard for me to get how anyone that has seen this band would not endorse this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Tom Banjo Posted March 16, 2010 Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 No member of the Grateful Dead or any band with serious chops can be replaced. Need proof, just look at how different the sound was with each keyboard player. Phil is a musical genius and without a doubt an integral part of the GD. I don't think a bass player could easily mimic his style, knowledge, and ability. Therefore, in each incarnation of the GD, all members were important and essential to the creation of the sound. Need a recent example. JK leaves DSO. JM plays with DSO. JK is irreplaceable to current DSO sound; DSO sound changes and evolves. JK joins Phil and Bobby's new band; the new sound being created blows away the sound created by Bobby and Phil's last band. That being said... It was all about Garcia. Garcia could get together with any group of musicians and take them into outer space. No other member of the Grateful Dead could put together a side project that could bring the heat like JGB. Hell no other member could put together a full time project that could bring the heat like JGB. JK is not Garcia, not even close, but he was the only one on stage that has even the slightest bit of Garcia's magic. Bobby, Phil, CR, or JG can sing Jerry's songs with all the heart and soul inside of them and there not going to achieve the feeling Garcia does on an off night on the shitty sound of my lap top with no speakers. JK might be able to do that or for me, often does when given the chance. This show was certainly a Phil and Friends show. I too was surprised that Furthur didn't get to play a set by themselves and that some bigger name guests were not part of the celebration. However, I was happy to be there and I enjoyed the show. Although I think it should be noted that JK's playing was certainly diminished by him not singing. At times, I felt like JK essentially disappeared from the mix. Do not judge Furthur based on this show. The 2nd set 2nd night in Colorado might provide a better example of the greatness this band can and will achieve. It won't happen every night, but man it will be awesome when your lucky enough to be there. I thought Portland was okay. Some people are higher on it than others, but I didn't think it was that great. Certainly wouldn't call it a bad show though. Now, I will wait for DSO and Furthur's next tour - see you in April (Boulder). Got to see Stu while in SF; thought he was good, but I won't really know if he can bring the heat until he plays with DSO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP chuckvegas Posted March 16, 2010 Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Absolutely...bookends...especially early on..."you who choose...to lead must follow"...I really do appreciate the "discussions" that occur on this board...they are devoid of inane comments for the most part and I'm very grateful to be a part of this community I'm doing what I can to rectify this glaring lack, but it is a lonely and thankless task. See ya in our time zone shows next month... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP VincentPuleo Posted March 16, 2010 Author Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Sister , the only " F-John" that I saw in any post was in Vincent Puleo's reply to Fishmans "F-Phil and F-Furhtur" , unless I'm wrong and you can call me out on that if I am , F-John was only in VP's reply ..... I never have and never would say such a thing... this is what I said... "Remember guys... Everyone knows how this small corner in the Grateful Dead forum world is different than most. Saying "F**k Phil, John, and Furthur" is completely wrong and resorting to the ways of ratdog.org in mindlessness. This was just supposed to be a nice story but ever since Furthur came to be it seems like everything not directly related to Dark Star Orchestra is "disrespectful" or a "slap in the face" to the band... This story tells of the spirit that DSO does such an amazing, mind-blowing, other worldly good job at carrying on..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP VincentPuleo Posted March 16, 2010 Author Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 I said.. "Saying "F**k Phil, John, and Furthur" is completely wrong" I'm confused... deadheadmike I think you are misunderstanding me... I don't believe I added in John, that was definitely in the post, might have been a different one or edited out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP Dstone5553 Posted March 16, 2010 Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Do not judge Furthur based on this show. People are judging Furthur based on this show? Who the hell would do that? This wasn't a Furthur show. With the history of Phil and Friends, we knew what this was going to be. Our tickets said "Furthur and Friends" for goodness sakes. I know it seems unjust that CR sang that Comes a Time (and it was!) but come on...give me a break. We knew that Phil had been playing with these two guys longer than he's played with John. We knew what we were going to get. Like I said..I haven't read much of this thread but I want to meet people who would judge Furthur based on this show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum MVP chuckvegas Posted March 16, 2010 Forum MVP Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 "When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead..." Let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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