Obama Just Lost My Vote

[neutrino]

I was wondering how long it would take before the "let's get our house in order at home before we deem ourselves fit to even think about traveling elsewhere" and "what an unseemly amount of money it wastes" arguments would be advanced. Good thing that Eric the Red, Columbus, Capt. Cook, and Henry Hudson among others didn't listen. Not a perfect analogy, but the spirit of exploration makes humans the stronger in the long run.

I'm not even going to mention the technological advances ranging from microwave and computers to food storage and composite materials that the program has spurred. We put a man on the moon with slide rules and computing power that is about equal to a smart phone's ability.

We've achieved so much in such a short time that does have practical ramifications that the supposed sideshow of human exploration should be indulged for the wonder of it all, even if the "coolness" factor is discounted. Who knows what can be accomplished in not only near-earth orbit but in the asteroid belt and beyond? And the advances that could be achieved by funding such efforts as colonizing Mars, sending humans to the moons of Jupiter and Saturn (life on Europa, anyone?) certainly won't detract from the quality of life down here.

Herdy already made a quote that I otherwise would have trotted out. Lambast it if you will, but I believe that humans both individually and collectively strive better when they aim higher. Our spirit soars when we boldly go. And that just isn't trying to be cool, but to be more.

Chuck, I'm all for space exploration--just not with human passengers. As I said, it is incredibly expensive and has no significant scientific benefit. The International Space Station has been a black hole for money, not produced any significant science, and is a total joke. Read that link I included in my previous post--it states the facts very well. Sadly, the real science that NASA could do has been completely gutted due to the need to pay for the "stunt" of sending humans into low Earth orbit. If we actually did get people to Mars (which we won't), it would be a scientific disaster. The presence of bacteria ladden humans would contaminate the planet and forever ruin science's ability to study whether life independently formed on another planet. The technological spinoffs that you mention did not require us to send people into space.

If we were operating with unlimited budgets, then sure, send people to the moon. It accomplishes nothing, but makes for some nice images. However, in the real scientific budgetary environment we live in, it is a completely bad priority. Better to spend the money on newer and better robotic probes for exploring the solar system, and more powerful telescopes for studying the rest of the universe.

[Sister Bluebird]

There are only a few more launches left and I am going to try againg in July.

there is primitive camping on canaveral national seashore with 2 beach camping spaces, about 1/2 mile apart. you have to show up in person no more than 1 week in advance to reserve them. well worth the hassle. you wake up in the morning, make coffee, and you own the beach. just you, the gulls, and the shhhusshh of the waves. glorious. might be worth checking out for july.

[christophoria]

And who went into LEO last year to fix the incredible telescope that studies the rest of the universe, astronauts... Hubble would be dead without them. I agree with the idea that the process is what makes it worthwhile, the dream is what makes it possible. The manned space program is understandably controversial yet gives the human spirit wings upon which to fly. It also employs hundreds of thousands of people. We need simultaneous robotic exploration as well... this is not an "either/or" proposition, IMHO.

Chuck, I'm all for space exploration--just not with human passengers. As I said, it is incredibly expensive and has no significant scientific benefit. The International Space Station has been a black hole for money, not produced any significant science, and is a total joke. Read that link I included in my previous post--it states the facts very well. Sadly, the real science that NASA could do has been completely gutted due to the need to pay for the "stunt" of sending humans into low Earth orbit. If we actually did get people to Mars (which we won't), it would be a scientific disaster. The presence of bacteria ladden humans would contaminate the planet and forever ruin science's ability to study whether life independently formed on another planet. The technological spinoffs that you mention did not require us to send people into space.

If we were operating with unlimited budgets, then sure, send people to the moon. It accomplishes nothing, but makes for some nice images. However, in the real scientific budgetary environment we live in, it is a completely bad priority. Better to spend the money on newer and better robotic probes for exploring the solar system, and more powerful telescopes for studying the rest of the universe.

[chuckvegas]

I agree with you about the way the ISS has been developed - like the old joke that a camel is an animal designed by committee. And certainly the possibility that Mars or other bodies with atmospheres could be contaminated exists, although I'd at least like to believe that we could manage to avoid an Indians-with-smallpox-blankets scenario on a planetary scale.

Thank God we were able to repair the Hubble with the stunt of STS-103 and again with STS-125. And I totally agree with you about better telescopes. It is awesome to think what we will be able to image with the JWST and its progeny. Already thaey have ones from only 650 million years after the Big Bang.

Maybe some of the spin-offs didn't require us to send humans into space (although I doubt we'd have Tang if we had stopped at Telstar) but like war, it accelerated the pace.

I guess my bottom line is that the manned space flight program isn't radically increasing multi-trillion dollar deficits, and that what pursuing it says and contributes to the spirit that makes us human is worth the cost.

And I completely agree about the shush of the waves and the call of the gulls. Intangibles do count.

[christophoria]

Great Chucky, we were writing simultaneously, an effect of technology supported by the space/military complex undoubtedly!

[chuckvegas]

Great Chucky, we were writing simultaneously, an effect of technology supported by the space/military complex undoubtedly!

Roger that, good buddy!

[neutrino]

I agree with you about the way the ISS has been developed - like the old joke that a camel is an animal designed by committee. And certainly the possibility that Mars or other bodies with atmospheres could be contaminated exists, although I'd at least like to believe that we could manage to avoid an Indians-with-smallpox-blankets scenario on a planetary scale.

Thank God we were able to repair the Hubble with the stunt of STS-103 and again with STS-125. And I totally agree with you about better telescopes. It is awesome to think what we will be able to image with the JWST and its progeny. Already thaey have ones from only 650 million years after the Big Bang.

Maybe some of the spin-offs didn't require us to send humans into space (although I doubt we'd have Tang if we had stopped at Telstar) but like war, it accelerated the pace.

I guess my bottom line is that the manned space flight program isn't radically increasing multi-trillion dollar deficits, and that what pursuing it says and contributes to the spirit that makes us human is worth the cost.

And I completely agree about the shush of the waves and the call of the gulls. Intangibles do count.

The repair of the HST with shuttle astronauts was indeed a great achievement. The results from the Hubble with correctly vision have been absolutely stunning to behold, and scientifically incredibly important. This was one example of where humans were CURRENTLY better equipped to do the job (although a robot probably wouldn't let go of their tool bag float away and become a hazard!)

BUT....

If NASA wasn't spending all their money on these mostly pointess shuttle and ISS missions, they could have just said: "Opps--we fucked up with the mirror on the HST. Oh well, we'll just build another one even better the original and send it up and let the original one burn up in the atmosphere" They'd also still have plenty of extra money to spend on some other telescopes and robotic probes. Unfortunately, NASA has had to slash the budgets of projects that could have really been incredibly worthwhile. Instead, we have a bunch of people from several nations floating around in a $100B tin can, and doing nothing of real significance. No matter how you look at it, the scientific justification for the manned space program is simply not there, which was a key issue at the start of this thread.

[chuckvegas]

I do agree about the near-farce the ISS is given its mismanagement and never-ending change in scope and non-mission. We probably would have been better off to run it as a completely American project, jingoistic and hegemonic though that may seem.

But it is a first step, maybe (hopefully) the Mercury to the Apollo of true solar system and beyond exploration. And that is a goal worthy of the vision that has guided our species since we came down from the trees. And it would be so fucking cool!

[neutrino]

I do agree about the near-farce the ISS is given its mismanagement and never-ending change in scope and non-mission. We probably would have been better off to run it as a completely American project, jingoistic and hegemonic though that may seem.

But it is a first step, maybe (hopefully) the Mercury to the Apollo of true solar system and beyond exploration. And that is a goal worthy of the vision that has guided our species since we came down from the trees. And it would be so fucking cool!

Unless someone actually invents a working Warp Drive, I would say we are stuck right here in the solar system. A realistic sub-light velocity voyage to even the nearest star would take many generations. I for one would prefer to spend my one life right here on Earth...trying to improve the planet and grooving to Grateful Dead music!!

On the other hand, if we spent the money to build a telescope that could actually view details of planets in other solar system, THAT would be very fucking cool! It is a huge technical challenge, but unlike interstellar travel, it is scientifically possible. However, as long as we continue to piss away the limited money on manned space missions, it will not happen.

[chuckvegas]

I'm no theoretical physicist by any stretch of the imagination, not conversant on string theory and the intricacies of quantum mechanics, and I recognize that we likely won't have FTL flight in the near future. Still, who knows? With breakthroughs in propulsion technologies and the benefit of relativistic time dilation as one approaches c , maybe Alpha Centauri isn't completely out of reach.

And as one leaves the plane of the galactic, Eyes of the World could have a really cool meaning. I'd dance.

[Mango]

How much longer before the planet is overcrowded and we need to find another place to inhabit? I hope we are prepared.

I would contend that the problem lies not in finding another place to continue living the way we do now but rather to change the way we live here, now.

And Chuck. I agree that humans do best when they aim high....I disagree that we need spaceships to do this.

[Guest deadheadmike]

How much longer before the planet is overcrowded and we need to find another place to inhabit? I hope we are prepared.

[chuckvegas]

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves...."

[Guest crazy digits]

LOL, yes me Bix.. I know it's hard to understand!!

guess i am one to talk..

[Herdygerdy]

what aaron, david, tor, and neutrino said!

You youngin's... y'all make me laugh.. you get your panties in a bunch over such stupid shit.... and FWIW... Obama hasn't lost my vote, I was just irritated with the story. To be honest, the man hasn't done a damn thing that *I* find mindblowing... If he continues to keep going along these lines, I will surely look into another voting option in 2012.

I was wondering how long it would take before the "let's get our house in order at home before we deem ourselves fit to even think about traveling elsewhere" and "what an unseemly amount of money it wastes" arguments would be advanced. Good thing that Eric the Red, Columbus, Capt. Cook, and Henry Hudson among others didn't listen. Not a perfect analogy, but the spirit of exploration makes humans the stronger in the long run.

I'm not even going to mention the technological advances ranging from microwave and computers to food storage and composite materials that the program has spurred. We put a man on the moon with slide rules and computing power that is about equal to a smart phone's ability.

We've achieved so much in such a short time that does have practical ramifications that the supposed sideshow of human exploration should be indulged for the wonder of it all, even if the "coolness" factor is discounted. Who knows what can be accomplished in not only near-earth orbit but in the asteroid belt and beyond? And the advances that could be achieved by funding such efforts as colonizing Mars, sending humans to the moons of Jupiter and Saturn (life on Europa, anyone?) certainly won't detract from the quality of life down here.

Thank you, Chuck... I knew your nerdiness, like mine, when it comes to sci-fi, would back me up.

The presence of bacteria ladden humans would contaminate the planet and forever ruin science's ability to study whether life independently formed on another planet.

And now how possible is this exactly? Most bacteria need O2 to survive, and everything NASA sends up, is super sterilized, as well as their human passangers... how on earth (no pun intended) would we get bacteria to Mars, and even if we did, I highly doubt it will survive... It's not like the astronauts are gonna pull down their zippers and take a leak when they have to go, while exploring the surface of Mars. I call bullshit on that statement, but again... just my opinion folks...

Some of you people make me laugh so much... no one ever wants to "agree to disagree" with anyone... if y'all believe something, you have a tendency to get pissy and irritated when someone disagrees with you... Now if I said that 2+2=5, then by all means, lambaste me, because I would be spewing wrong information... BUT, my opinions are my opinions, and no matter what y'all say or do is ever gonna make me change my mind when it comes to opinions and what I believe in...

A little off topic, but kind of relovent in my eyes... Ya know what really pisses me off about Democrats? Their inability to agree on something as a whole (even if the fine points they dont), so that things can be changed... I find that Republicans will back each other up on just about anything, which makes them more apt to get laws changed, because they get their whole party behind them. Democrats on the otherhand, can never seem to do that. It's because alot of them are so self-righteous in their beliefs, that they won't budge an inch on what they think to help the party in whole. Which is why I refuse to become a registered Democrat... I'll stick with my Independent status until the Donkeys can get their shit together and work together...

so funny...

[chuckvegas]

In my world, day in and day out, 2+2 does equal 5.

[NJJohn]

neutrino - I am also a scientist (chemist) and I do think manned space travel is important. The Mars probes Spirit and Opportunity were fantastic successes. They were engineering marvels and I could not believe the pictures and hard data they provided. By the way the Intrepid Space Air and Sea museum has a program about these two Mars probes running through June.

The manned space program unites the international community for common goals. Are you telling me that the USA is worse off than Russia and Japan? They are continuing to fund their programs. Maybe we can stop making bombs or something. Oh wait, that is the only thing we manufacture in this country that is worth anything.

Obama doesn't want this type of science because it interfers with his agenda, Cap & Tax, Government run health insurance, ect. Lots of people jumping off the Obama band wagon. I'm sure JFK is rolling over in his grave.

[New York Steve]

neutrino - I am also a scientist (chemist) and I do think manned space travel is important. The Mars probes Spirit and Opportunity were fantastic successes. They were engineering marvels and I could not believe the pictures and hard data they provided. By the way the Intrepid Space Air and Sea museum has a program about these two Mars probes running through June.

The manned space program unites the international community for common goals. Are you telling me that the USA is worse off than Russia and Japan? They are continuing to fund their programs. Maybe we can stop making bombs or something. Oh wait, that is the only thing we manufacture in this country that is worth anything.

Obama doesn't want this type of science because it interfers with his agenda, Cap & Tax, Government run health insurance, ect. Lots of people jumping off the Obama band wagon. I'm sure JFK is rolling over in his grave.

Uniting the international community, where were you for eight years when we were the laughing stock? Now all of sudden you care about what the world thinks???

I suppose space exploration is more important than jobs? health insurance? the environment?

[neutrino]

neutrino - I am also a scientist (chemist) and I do think manned space travel is important. The Mars probes Spirit and Opportunity were fantastic successes. They were engineering marvels and I could not believe the pictures and hard data they provided. By the way the Intrepid Space Air and Sea museum has a program about these two Mars probes running through June.

The manned space program unites the international community for common goals. Are you telling me that the USA is worse off than Russia and Japan? They are continuing to fund their programs. Maybe we can stop making bombs or something. Oh wait, that is the only thing we manufacture in this country that is worth anything.

Obama doesn't want this type of science because it interfers with his agenda, Cap & Tax, Government run health insurance, ect. Lots of people jumping off the Obama band wagon. I'm sure JFK is rolling over in his grave.

It's a matter of priorities in a limited budget environment. Do you know how much each shuttle launch costs? Well, if you look at the entire cost of Shuttle program, and divide by the number of missions, it comes out to about $1.3B/mission!!!!!! One can arrive at a slightly higher or lower number depending on how one figures these things, but $1.3B is a reasonable figure. How much important real space science could have been accomplished if they hadn't pissed away such massive amounts of money on this program? The cost of BOTH Mars rover missions came out to a mere $600M. The second rover actually only cost about $200M, since much of the cost of the first one did not have to be repeated. The intial cost of the HST was about $1.5B--about the same as one stinking shuttle launch!! Your support for this because you think it "unites the international community for commons goals" seems completely specious. There are plenty of examples of scientist uniting for common goals in large projects where they are actually doing something that has scientific merit. The large hadron collider at CERN is a good example. The opposite example of this is the ISS, which was a complete waste of vast amounts of money.

I really don't care to debate your opinions about Obama. You politics are clearly different than mine. I only wish I could buy a government run insurance policy at a reasonable price, rather than giving fucking Blue Shield $710/month, so they can make such an obscene profit.

[chuckvegas]

Alas, I believe they just announced that Spirit literally froze up...RIP. They were incredible, exceeding all expectations. I lived in Dallas at the time they were proposing to build the SCSC there. It would have been truly exciting to have that science done in the US, not to mention good for local property values. Oh well, particle physics in France and Switzerland is better than none at all! In these fiscally challenging times, I'd be sad to see that type of experimentation cut globally.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but in my mind it is better to maintain the manned space flight program to at least some extent to keep those very highly skilled jobs, and the phycical plants necessary for them, alive here lest we lose them overseas too. How does it go - you're either a head or you're behind?

[NJJohn]

Uniting the international community, where were you for eight years when we were the laughing stock? Now all of sudden you care about what the world thinks???

I suppose space exploration is more important than jobs? health insurance? the environment?

Maybe I should have been more specific. I mean the world scientific community. I could care less what France thinks about the USA. The blame it on Bush mentality is alive and well I see.

[Dstone5553]

Uniting the international community, where were you for eight years when we were the laughing stock? Now all of sudden you care about what the world thinks???

That's right. Those years didn't count for many people. It's only now that they have found their voices after 8 years of deliberate indifference.

It's kind of hilarious, in a way.

[NJJohn]

It's a matter of priorities in a limited budget environment. Do you know how much each shuttle launch costs? Well, if you look at the entire cost of Shuttle program, and divide by the number of missions, it comes out to about $1.3B/mission!!!!!! One can arrive at a slightly higher or lower number depending on how one figures these things, but $1.3B is a reasonable figure. How much important real space science could have been accomplished if they hadn't pissed away such massive amounts of money on this program? The cost of BOTH Mars rover missions came out to a mere $600M. The second rover actually only cost about $200M, since much of the cost of the first one did not have to be repeated. The intial cost of the HST was about $1.5B--about the same as one stinking shuttle launch!! Your support for this because you think it "unites the international community for commons goals" seems completely specious. There are plenty of examples of scientist uniting for common goals in large projects where they are actually doing something that has scientific merit. The large hadron collider at CERN is a good example. The opposite example of this is the ISS, which was a complete waste of vast amounts of money.

I really don't care to debate your opinions about Obama. You politics are clearly different than mine. I only wish I could buy a government run insurance policy at a reasonable price, rather than giving fucking Blue Shield $710/month, so they can make such an obscene profit.

If it is waste you so concered about, why don't they get the waste out of the Medicare system. You don't need a Bill to do that. I think BCBS made a 2-3% profit last year. What do you think is a reasonable amount? Medicare doesn't profit, but they are nearly bankrupt due to waste and admin costs. Which system is better?

[maningreen]

Who needs NASA when we've got DSO?

[chuckvegas]

Who needs NASA when we've got DSO?

Well said. They offer such a lovely view of heaven...