Really, Massachusetts?

[NJJohn]

I have no problem with Tort reform, bring it on! Ever since that person got a zillion dollars for spilling McDonald coffee on her lap I've beem disgusted with that stuff. So do the Tort reform knowing that the settlements are less than 1% of all healthcare spending. Do it and get the cry of "Tort reform" out of the discussion, it's a red herring that detracts from the issues. How could anyone be against having all people having healthcare coverage? How?

I think every little bit helps. I don't hear Republicans saying they are against health insurance reform. They are against deficit spending, higher tax, special back room deals, unconstitutional mandates, and the "we won" mentality which excluded one party from participating in the heath insurance reform debate.

[Tom Banjo]

Hey, did the thought ever cross anyone's mind that doctors and pharmacist serve a higher calling - possibly like Monks, priests, or other people who assume a simple life. Doctors go to school for a long time and they deserve great rewards for their dedication. Unfortunately, the reward has become money and the real reward should be helping and serving all people within their reach.

[Jack Jones]

I love the idea that the benevolent for profit companies are somehow better than the government. These same companies poison our air and water, exploit their workers and take advantage of people every chance they get, all in the name of profits.

[Jack Jones]

I am a scientist so in order to make a conclusion about the Harvard study, I would need to see the data. Not to mention the fact that the NY Times and Wash. Post are both bias in their reporting.

Single payer = lees service higher cost (see Medicare & Medicaid)

I have very good healthcare insurance. Last year, I needed to have surgery for Carpel Tunnel Syndrome. I had had this surgery on my other hand in 2003 when I had another insurance plan. My new insurance was out of network for the surgon I wanted to use (NYC at the Hospital for Special Surgery #1 orthopedic hospital in the country) So I asked the surgeon if she would accept my insurance paid at 70%. She said yes. Doctors are willing to work with you on medical care. The problem is getting affordable coverage to those who do not have access to it. People who can't get it from their employer, self employed, ect.

In my personal life, I knew a long time ago that I would need health insurance in order to survive. I have a chronic disease which requires hundreds of dollars on meds. every month. I have had insurance all my working life. I have only recently started paying for my insurance (2004) Every year except one, the cost has increased and in some years, the deductable has gotten larger. This year, I will pay $36/month more for insurance, higher costs for meds, and higher deductibles.

The bottom line is bigger Government is not going to fix this problem.

John, for a scientist with such a desire for the truth you seem very quick to repeat unproven, unscientific republican talking points. Do you see any inconsistencies with your approach?

[Mango]

Why not? I'm not a war and weapons guy, but I'd rather see our tax dollars strengthen the military versus paying for foreign terrorist's legal bills. Why is that such a crazy thought? Just my opinion. This is all meant to be civilized dialogue. Not to get anyone upset. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I didn't realize that it was so black and white. Ever consider that the bigger problem maybe stems from the actions of out country? that the millions of people in the world who hate America have been wronged? I'm not saying that I agree agree or sympathize with "terrorists", or any people who take it upon themselves to end other's lives, but I KNOW that any solution involving using weapons or making more of them is only more of the same shit that hasn't worked for 1000s of years. Everyone is entitles to an opinion. My opinion is that your mentality about this wrong and that it is one many others share. sadly...

[Rusty the Scoob]

Hey, did the thought ever cross anyone's mind that doctors and pharmacist serve a higher calling - possibly like Monks, priests, or other people who assume a simple life. Doctors go to school for a long time and they deserve great rewards for their dedication. Unfortunately, the reward has become money and the real reward should be helping and serving all people within their reach.

I'm actually ok with doctors making a lot of money. When you're sitting there with your arm broken or internal bleeding, what is it worth to you to have it fixed, and fixed correctly? It's hard to put a price on it, but clearly it's a lot.

Same with lawyers. $150/hr is an astounding amount of money until you consider that some of it goes to pay their staff, some to paying expenses, and more importantly an hour or two of a good lawyers's time can save you thousands or hundreds of thousands if they draft up a good pre-nup, or prepare and record your deed correctly on the house that you are buying, etc.

[Guest jazz-man]

True, but many things can be done by yourself through getting paperwork at your local bookstore. I'm about to do my will this way. I did most of a divorce this way. I agree that a lawyer might save you money or protect you in the future but I still don't think they are worth $150/hour. That's an lower average price, not for the pricier ones. And don't most businessmen have to pay staff, overhead, rent, etc? I remain unconvinced that lawyers are worth the money they charge. IMHO and all that.

[Tom Banjo]

I disagree that Dr.'s should become rich through their work. We will obviously have to agree to disagree on this subject. For thousands of years, doctor's or medicine men had a unique and special bond with ethicists and philosophers. Although their methods highly questionable and not nearly as skilled and effective as today's doctors, these doctors understood that their purpose was to help others. How much value could we place on the importance and impact of social leaders like Jesus, Gandhi, MLK Jr., etc? Certainly, those guys should have become rich people for their additions and assistance to society; unfortunately, instead, these mens gave their lives with little to no regard for wealth. Do you think the medicine man in the Native American and South American tribes and communities asked to be made rich for being a medicine man. No, I think he was more simply ecstatic to help others and carry an amazing image amongst his peoples. I believe Doctors have a higher calling to help people; if the Doctor doesn't really want to help people; he should probably focus on cosmetic surgeries and procedures that are not necessary to help and heal people.

A lawyer is a whole different monster and story. Let me say, I do not believe anybody should make or have as much money as some people do in this world, but like the Doctor, the lawyer needs to decide whether his calling is to make a lot of money and represent corporations that have money or whether his calling is to help people and become a public defender. A desire to make a lot of money doesn't make you a bad a person, but to do it under the guise that your helping and/or want to help people is simply wrong. If you truly wanted to help people, you wouldn't deny service to anyone and accept that no payment may be received for your services.

[Teacher Matt]

I am glad that this topic (one that I took some bashing on... but don't worry I didn't lose any sleep over it) has turned into a somewhat and most of the posts ... well a worthy discussion...

that is always my intention... sometimes methods may be different... but remember in order for me to reach teenagers I have to be a little "mad" .. and we all still have some teenager left in us.. right ? ... right !

[Tom Banjo]

I am glad that this topic (one that I took some bashing on... but don't worry I didn't lose any sleep over it) has turned into a somewhat and most of the posts ... well a worthy discussion...

that is always my intention... sometimes methods may be different... but remember in order for me to reach teenagers I have to be a little "mad" .. and we all still have some teenager left in us.. right ? ... right !

I still have some very pre-teen thought. The idealistic banter I have been sharing certainly does not agree with world conditioned realistic views. I should be championing some form of reform and public health insurance program because of my registration as a Democrat. I certainly shouldn't be critical and upset with Obama and the lack of anything he has really done. I shouldn't be calling for a smaller government (Democrats love big government) that neither party seems to care about anymore. However, the idealist in me still believe that inherently all people are good and despite all the negativity and classism present in American society, positivity and love will prevail and eventually people and not money or power will become important again.

[Teacher Matt]

Not everyone is "conditioned" ... which is a good thing.. count me as one that is not.. so +1

and people are more important to me than money... so +1 as well ..

[Rusty the Scoob]

I disagree that Dr.'s should become rich through their work. We will obviously have to agree to disagree on this subject. For thousands of years, doctor's or medicine men had a unique and special bond with ethicists and philosophers. Although their methods highly questionable and not nearly as skilled and effective as today's doctors, these doctors understood that their purpose was to help others. How much value could we place on the importance and impact of social leaders like Jesus, Gandhi, MLK Jr., etc? Certainly, those guys should have become rich people for their additions and assistance to society; unfortunately, instead, these mens gave their lives with little to no regard for wealth. Do you think the medicine man in the Native American and South American tribes and communities asked to be made rich for being a medicine man. No, I think he was more simply ecstatic to help others and carry an amazing image amongst his peoples. I believe Doctors have a higher calling to help people; if the Doctor doesn't really want to help people; he should probably focus on cosmetic surgeries and procedures that are not necessary to help and heal people.

A lawyer is a whole different monster and story. Let me say, I do not believe anybody should make or have as much money as some people do in this world, but like the Doctor, the lawyer needs to decide whether his calling is to make a lot of money and represent corporations that have money or whether his calling is to help people and become a public defender. A desire to make a lot of money doesn't make you a bad a person, but to do it under the guise that your helping and/or want to help people is simply wrong. If you truly wanted to help people, you wouldn't deny service to anyone and accept that no payment may be received for your services.

The medicine men in primitive cultures were generally revered, had more power, better (or more) wives, better living arrangements, etc, than the ordinary working people that they served.

As far as lawyers only helping people by being public defenders - I don't agree with that at all. There are plenty of people I'd like to be in jail - rapists, murderers, white collar criminals, especially those who steal from all of us. I'm thankful for the prosecutors who protect us from those types of people.

Do you do what you do for a living purely out of a desire to help people? If not, why not? And are you willing to do it below market value? Would you be interested in taking a pay cut just for the good of mankind?

[bs69]

I didn't realize that it was so black and white. Ever consider that the bigger problem maybe stems from the actions of out country? that the millions of people in the world who hate America have been wronged? I'm not saying that I agree agree or sympathize with "terrorists", or any people who take it upon themselves to end other's lives, but I KNOW that any solution involving using weapons or making more of them is only more of the same shit that hasn't worked for 1000s of years. Everyone is entitles to an opinion. My opinion is that your mentality about this wrong and that it is one many others share. sadly...

Maybe we would not have a terrorist problem if we managed to stay out of others affairs, but I think we still would. The freedom and openness of our society is a threat to leaders in other countries. They must, to keep their own power, portray us as an evil empire. I may be wrong, but I'd bet there is not much coverage of U.S. relief missions to Haiti in these countries. Our best course of action is to wait for U.N. sanction before acting in other's soveriegn space. I don't think the detainee's should be treated as common criminals but rather enemy combatants and Geneva convention rules should dictate their treatment.

[bs69]

Hey, did the thought ever cross anyone's mind that doctors and pharmacist serve a higher calling - possibly like Monks, priests, or other people who assume a simple life. Doctors go to school for a long time and they deserve great rewards for their dedication. Unfortunately, the reward has become money and the real reward should be helping and serving all people within their reach.

Unfortunately the Romans pretty much wiped out the Druids by the 5th century. I believe that a lot of people start out doing what they do for noble intentions. Then they get married, have kids and it all goes out the window. Now there are others that rely on you and it isn't so simple anymore.

[Tom Banjo]

The medicine men in primitive cultures were generally revered, had more power, better (or more) wives, better living arrangements, etc, than the ordinary working people that they served.

As far as lawyers only helping people by being public defenders - I don't agree with that at all. There are plenty of people I'd like to be in jail - rapists, murderers, white collar criminals, especially those who steal from all of us. I'm thankful for the prosecutors who protect us from those types of people.

Do you do what you do for a living purely out of a desire to help people? If not, why not? And are you willing to do it below market value? Would you be interested in taking a pay cut just for the good of mankind?

The medicine man just like today's priest did receive some degree exalted status. Better sleeping arrangements, food, and in some cases, more beautiful wives. I guess today money is the way to which you get better sleeping arrangements, food, and more beautiful women (wife and some girls on the side). Unfortunately, the excessive life style of the medicine man cannot be compared to the life of excess that some members of this society live.

I agree with you that yes prosecutors provide a well needed service some of the time, but a lot of the time, are most concerned with looking hard on certain issues than with respecting individuals rights. Some prosecutors are helping people.

As for what I do, I am student so I don't really do very much for money, but what I do is so that I can go see live music played - mostly DSO. I don't think I have a higher calling to help and heal people, but I try to spread love and joy to everyone I meet. I feel I do my small part for both friends and strangers to try to help put them in a better place in the moment. I am certainly no saint and do not deserve the praise and social status of a doctor that does his services for free and helps people regardless of financial gain.

I do not have any dependents. I do agree that this would complicate things drastically. Once again, I am aware that the views I am expressing are very idealistic and somewhat naive. I just feel that this opinion needs to be shared and spread before ideas like these disappear from our society altogether.

[Rusty the Scoob]

The medicine man just like today's priest did receive some degree exalted status. Better sleeping arrangements, food, and in some cases, more beautiful wives. I guess today money is the way to which you get better sleeping arrangements, food, and more beautiful women (wife and some girls on the side). Unfortunately, the excessive life style of the medicine man cannot be compared to the life of excess that some members of this society live.

I agree with you that yes prosecutors provide a well needed service some of the time, but a lot of the time, are most concerned with looking hard on certain issues than with respecting individuals rights. Some prosecutors are helping people.

As for what I do, I am student so I don't really do very much for money, but what I do is so that I can go see live music played - mostly DSO. I don't think I have a higher calling to help and heal people, but I try to spread love and joy to everyone I meet. I feel I do my small part for both friends and strangers to try to help put them in a better place in the moment. I am certainly no saint and do not deserve the praise and social status of a doctor that does his services for free and helps people regardless of financial gain.

I do not have any dependents. I do agree that this would complicate things drastically. Once again, I am aware that the views I am expressing are very idealistic and somewhat naive. I just feel that this opinion needs to be shared and spread before ideas like these disappear from our society altogether.

Oh, you're a student!

In that case, I applaud your idealism and encourage you to hang on to it as long as you can! Seriously... it'll serve you well. Allow me, though, to redirect your focus a little:

For perspective - doctors and lawyers make about 3-5x what I make. I have an ordinary cubicle job in banking that requires only a non-specific college degree, and I can't honestly say that I work all that hard or am particularly driven. I'm ok with them being more highly compensated than me, they have the power to enhance or destroy lives on a daily basis while I just sit here boredly pushing commercial mortgage information around.

The real imbalance is CEOs who make 100-1000x what I make. I'm ok with a doctor or lawyer having the power to buy a nicer house and newer car than me, but individuals having the power to buy or control football teams or airlines or sky scrapers creates the real imbalance in society. The root of the problem is that they can and do hire teams of lawyers and other people to influence society to their own benefit, which by default gives them power over the rest of us, Furthur enhancing their position of power. It's a vicious cycle that serves to widen the gap between the middle-class (which includes doctors and lawyers and anyone with a net worth of under a few million dollars) and the ultra-wealthy CEOs and politicians. They are the ones who feed on society without giving back, and who stack the system in their favor.

[Guest jazz-man]

Interesting what bs69 said about the terrorist problem may have something to do with our foreign policy. I totally agree that we should re-evaluate our foreign policy and see if there is something there that we can correct that would make us safer. Like quit meddling in other folks' politics and kidnapping and setting up puppet rulers, etc.

[Tom Banjo]

Oh, you're a student!

In that case, I applaud your idealism and encourage you to hang on to it as long as you can! Seriously... it'll serve you well. Allow me, though, to redirect your focus a little:

For perspective - doctors and lawyers make about 3-5x what I make. I have an ordinary cubicle job in banking that requires only a non-specific college degree, and I can't honestly say that I work all that hard or am particularly driven. I'm ok with them being more highly compensated than me, they have the power to enhance or destroy lives on a daily basis while I just sit here boredly pushing commercial mortgage information around.

The real imbalance is CEOs who make 100-1000x what I make. I'm ok with a doctor or lawyer having the power to buy a nicer house and newer car than me, but individuals having the power to buy or control football teams or airlines or sky scrapers creates the real imbalance in society. The root of the problem is that they can and do hire teams of lawyers and other people to influence society to their own benefit, which by default gives them power over the rest of us, Furthur enhancing their position of power. It's a vicious cycle that serves to widen the gap between the middle-class (which includes doctors and lawyers and anyone with a net worth of under a few million dollars) and the ultra-wealthy CEOs and politicians. They are the ones who feed on society without giving back, and who stack the system in their favor.

Thanks for the education. I am a fifth year senior at Georgetown University. I started as an international affairs major and now major in finance with a minor in philosophy. You did not tell me anything I did not already know and CEO pay is a large problem, but not the one we were discussing in this thread. I really have hurt my position with blanket and general statements. Not all doctors and lawyers are bad. For the most part, they might even be unaware of their part in the overall problem. Healthcare, medicine, and treatment are not things that should be capitalized and sold. They should be provided through whatever mechanism makes that possible - I too am wary of government control. Remember that their are CEOs and presidents and directors of hospitals and law firms that make that 100-1000x your salary your talking about. Please next time spare me the education. Do you have a solution for CEO compensation? I already stated earlier that some people make too much money period, regardless of their position. Do you think salary caps or 100% taxation passed a certain point of compensation would work? or Do you think like most economists that this would drive American business away and out of America?

Please be aware that most of what I have said is simply a combination of different philosophies and values expressed by other thinkers throughout time. It is not that hard to envision a world without money, war, power, and greed.

I believe that the system we have created will eventually fall upon itself. Probably not in my life time.

You may say I'm a dreamer...

Don't worry I won't give up to much on my idealism. I don't care too much for the system we live in and plan to sleep in a van and follow around whatever band is producing the best sound and that for me, would most likely have to be a Grateful Dead sound. I don't plan to pay into the system or take much from the system. I am fortunate enough to have garner the knowledge to turn a small nest egg into a simplistic life that can span out over many many years.

See you down the line. Peace and Love

[Rusty the Scoob]

I meant no disrespect. You definitely seem to have a much better understanding of the world than I did while I was in college!

[Tom Banjo]

I meant no disrespect. You definitely seem to have a much better understanding of the world than I did while I was in college!

I didn't mean any disrespect either. You bring up a valid point about the problem of CEO pay and essentially, a problem of having a society where the super rich have much much more than anyone else. I will be dancing my way down the road and I am sure we shall cross paths. I admit my post was a little defensive. I don't mean to be. I just wanted to make it clear that I am well read and CEO pay has been front page news of the WSJ off and on for quite sometime now.

[anddave]

problem of having a society where the super rich have much much more than anyone else.

again, this is not new nor is it unique to capitalism nor to the west nor to democracy.

it is unique to animals with intellect and opposable thumbs.

just like all other organisms, human societies are born, grow old and die. their deaths usually are recorded in history as some kind of wonderful victorious revolution by the survivors.

characteristics associated wtih dying societies include, first and foremost, intractable public debt.

think about it.

[Guest jazz-man]

I don't mean to stand on the soapbox and rant but here is an interesting article on CEO-vs-workers pay since 1989. Seems in '89 the average CEO pay was 40 times that of the average worker. Today it's 500 times the average worker's pay!! Read the whole article, it's eye opening.

[NJJohn]

I love the idea that the benevolent for profit companies are somehow better than the government. These same companies poison our air and water, exploit their workers and take advantage of people every chance they get, all in the name of profits.

You must be talking about The Peoples Republic of China, correct?

[NJJohn]

I'm actually ok with doctors making a lot of money. When you're sitting there with your arm broken or internal bleeding, what is it worth to you to have it fixed, and fixed correctly? It's hard to put a price on it, but clearly it's a lot.

Same with lawyers. $150/hr is an astounding amount of money until you consider that some of it goes to pay their staff, some to paying expenses, and more importantly an hour or two of a good lawyers's time can save you thousands or hundreds of thousands if they draft up a good pre-nup, or prepare and record your deed correctly on the house that you are buying, etc.

Where are you guys getting $150/hr lawyers? The last lawyer I saw charged $450/hr.

[Guest jazz-man]

I guess I was slummin'.

I forgot to link the article on CEO pay compared to the average worker's pay but a simple google search will furnish anyone with a tone of stuff to read.

If you don't want the government to run a National Healthcare who do you want to run it?