Really, Massachusetts?

[Jack Jones]

This is an interesting article from a man who traveled the world investigating how health care is delivered and funded. He also wrote a book ( The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care) about this which goes into more depth. I would suggest that everyone who is against "socialized" medicine read it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...9082101778.html

[jfolks]

JFolks,

You sound like a communist!

Their are bad apples in every bunch, don't single out the rich.

The Doctors and Lawyers earn their wealth, there are no entitlements! Maybe they would not charge so much, if they did not have to pay so much to become educated. Not only that, they put forth a lot of time and sacrafice to get their position. They should be rewarded for that.

i think that's a common misconception: that there's only two political/economic options- democracy or socialism.. just because your anti-capitalist doesnt mean your a commie...

my problem is with the economic hierarchy that is America... it is inherent within this system that the few are prosperous and the many will suffer..i acknowledged your second argument about sacrifice (but whose to say the coal miner's sacrifice is worth less?) and i agree with the assertion that "Maybe they would not charge so much, if they did not have to pay so much to become educated." but the US education system reflects standing class structures that characterize our society... specifically, educational opportunities are not evenly distributed across american socioeconomic spectrums. think of all the people you know that became doctors or lawyers.. what was their upbringing like? i bet they all came from well off families, or at the very least middle class... people rarely climb the social latter- they are born into their socioeconomic roles.. having said that, i dont think vital public services (re: legal or medical) should cost a ridiculous amount (you have to have money to get medical treatment or justice in this country).. i mean im not saying their services should be free, but these are two particular careers that shouldn't be earning Benzes and mansions as a result of their labor.

Thanks for keeping score. War sucks any way you look at it. I do not know how you can say 45000 Americans die because they do not have health insurance. You will never be turned down for at an emergency room, if you are too poor, there is Medicaid, and if you are over 65, you have Medicare. I would like to know how you arrived at this figure.

as someone who currently works for medicare/medicaid, let me say medicaid SUCKS! it is so fucked up, but medicaid is god awful.. doctors wont take it.. no one will.. seniors that are on it are comparatively fucked.. services for the poor are a fucking joke and only perpetuate the condition their in..

[NJJohn]

jfolks - My brother had to go on Medicaid for a peroid of time and he seemed to get what he needed. Glasses, meds, doctors, mental health care. Granted this is not the best care available, but it worked for him.

J J - The NY Times and Wash. Post articles make some claims but fail to scientifically prove how they come to this conclusion. A Dr with some good credentials says blah blah, doesnt make it so.

I will give you all some great preventitive health care advise:

Don't smoke

Don't drink

Lose weight

Exercise 5 times a week for 30-40 min

Eat healthy low fat foods (at least 80% fruits and vegetables)

If you smoke, drink, are overweight, and or have a poor diet, your put yourself at risk for serious medical problems. Take responsibility for your own well being.

Look, I am not against people having access to affordable health insurance. The Bills put through the House and Senate were crap. That brand of politics is no longer acceptable.

[Jack Jones]

jfolks - My brother had to go on Medicaid for a peroid of time and he seemed to get what he needed. Glasses, meds, doctors, mental health care. Granted this is not the best care available, but it worked for him.

J J - The NY Times and Wash. Post articles make some claims but fail to scientifically prove how they come to this conclusion. A Dr with some good credentials says blah blah, doesnt make it so.

I will give you all some great preventitive health care advise:

Don't smoke

Don't drink

Lose weight

Exercise 5 times a week for 30-40 min

Eat healthy low fat foods (at least 80% fruits and vegetables)

If you smoke, drink, are overweight, and or have a poor diet, your put yourself at risk for serious medical problems. Take responsibility for your own well being.

Look, I am not against people having access to affordable health insurance. The Bills put through the House and Senate were crap. That brand of politics is no longer acceptable.

Actually it was a Harvard medical school study and thay didn't just pull the numbers out of their ass.

The post article was by an investigative journalist who actually investigated health care systems in a number of countries.

I agree that the two bills put through were less than ideal. Unfortunately all of our elected officials are just shills for the big companies that sponsor them. What else can you expect?

The real answer would be a single payor system.

Here's another number for you: 60% of all bankruptcies are due to medical bills. This comes out to many hundreds of thousands of people.

[Jack Jones]

One other thing that struck me about your response is your "take responsibility for your own well being"

Unfortunately, we can do all of the right things and still be struck by a medical disaster.

This to me speaks of the problem with the conservative, pull yourself up by the bootstraps attitude.

Unfortunately so much in life is left to fate and chance. Were it not then there would be a lot more millionaires out there!

Life is not a pure meritocracy no matter where you live. I see it all the time, the man who busts his but doing three jobs but still falls behind and then the man who sits around all day living on a trust fund or some other good fortune.

Fate plays a much larger role than merit or hard work.

[blythalala]

I will give you all some great preventitive health care advise:

Don't smoke

Don't drink

Lose weight

Exercise 5 times a week for 30-40 min

Eat healthy low fat foods (at least 80% fruits and vegetables)

this is obviously sound advice, and advice to which we should all pay more attention. totally agree.

that said, in the context of this thread which has essentially become a discussion of fixing the health care crisis, are you joking? i think you must be joking.

[uncle john]

the US education system reflects standing class structures that characterize our society... specifically, educational opportunities are not evenly distributed across american socioeconomic spectrums. think of all the people you know that became doctors or lawyers.. what was their upbringing like? i bet they all came from well off families, or at the very least middle class... people rarely climb the social latter- they are born into their socioeconomic roles..

You have some good points here, but I believe today there is more access to education for all than ever before. If one chooses to seek out education, they will receive it, regardless of their socioeconomic class. I'll admit there are exceptoins though.

It's funny you should bring up the people I know that have become layers and doctors. I dated this girl in college for several years. She came from a broken home( divorce, drug use, abuse, etc...) Her father committed suicide due to drug dependency two weeks after we got together. Her family lived in low income state housing in her home town. To make a long story short, she came from nothing, but managed to pay for her undergrad, masters, and post masters classes all with Financial assistance, grants, scholarships, etc... She worked hard and was a good student. She eventually went on to Law school at Boston University, but took out loans to pay for that. She worked her ass off to get where she wanted to be. There is assistance out there for those who need it. Funny thing. I was one of seven kids. My father did pretty good though, but there is never enough $ with that many kids. Needless to say I never qualified for financial assistence, but it all worked out. I was able to get Stafford loans for my last two years and paid them off a few years back. My whole point is though, there is a lot of opportunity to move up the ladder in our country. You need to be lucky and take some risks and work hard though.

As for the healthcare system, there are lots of things that are wrong about the current situation. Taper Ron's situation is very unfortunate. I also believe that small businesses are getting killed on this too. They are forced to provide for their workers even if it means jeopardizing the succeess of their business. I believe there needs to be affordable accessable health care for all, but let's not force this bill through too quick without considering some of the pitfalls and what the bill also lacks. I don't want it to get passed, just so politicians can use as a way to get elected or prevent someone from being elected. I feel there needs to be big cooperation on both sides.

What scares me is a situation similar to the Health care provided to US Veterans. My father in law is a Vietnam Vet and he would not wish that health care system on anyone. Shouldn't our Veterans receive some of the best health care available? That's what scares me about this bill.

It's nice to see some good civilized dialogue about the issues.....

[uncle john]

3. No human rights for anyone accused of a crime, waterboarding and torture for all. Part of the constiution, no matter how heinous the crime, guarantee of a fair trial.

I believe that our Constitution and laws exist to protect this nation - they do not grant rights and privileges to enemies in wartime. In dealing with terrorists, our tax dollars should pay for weapons to stop them, not lawyers to defend them.

I do not want one penny of our tax dollars to pay for the defense of foreign born terrorists.

[NJJohn]

The real answer would be a single payor system.

Here's another number for you: 60% of all bankruptcies are due to medical bills. This comes out to many hundreds of thousands of people.

I am a scientist so in order to make a conclusion about the Harvard study, I would need to see the data. Not to mention the fact that the NY Times and Wash. Post are both bias in their reporting.

Single payer = lees service higher cost (see Medicare & Medicaid)

I have very good healthcare insurance. Last year, I needed to have surgery for Carpel Tunnel Syndrome. I had had this surgery on my other hand in 2003 when I had another insurance plan. My new insurance was out of network for the surgon I wanted to use (NYC at the Hospital for Special Surgery #1 orthopedic hospital in the country) So I asked the surgeon if she would accept my insurance paid at 70%. She said yes. Doctors are willing to work with you on medical care. The problem is getting affordable coverage to those who do not have access to it. People who can't get it from their employer, self employed, ect.

In my personal life, I knew a long time ago that I would need health insurance in order to survive. I have a chronic disease which requires hundreds of dollars on meds. every month. I have had insurance all my working life. I have only recently started paying for my insurance (2004) Every year except one, the cost has increased and in some years, the deductable has gotten larger. This year, I will pay $36/month more for insurance, higher costs for meds, and higher deductibles.

The bottom line is bigger Government is not going to fix this problem.

[Guest jazz-man]

Eat right, exercise, don't smoke, etc...good advice and important to one's health. But genetics and fate are right there too. Even healthy people have car wrecks and healthy people get strokes, MS, cancers, etc.

I don't have a problem helping out those less fortunate than me. When has that become a bad thing to do?

I've heard people say good things and bad things about the VA or medicare and Medicaid, I'm not sure what to make of the argument.

I am tired of ring wing folks talking about the "big government boogieman". No one wants "bigger government" but one thing is certain: we cannot trust corporations to do the right thing. By deregulating corporations and their practises we stare at the worst recession since the Great Depression. I want no part of the Corporate States Of America. I work for one of those evil large not-for-profit corporations and if they had their way they wouldn't even pay us. My raise for the coming year: 1.92%! Inflation is officially 3% but expected to rise to 4-6% this year and more the next. And that's the 'official' inflation rate. The actual rate is higher. Anyhow I'm losing money each year while the corpration I work for is doing reaaaaly well and the management is getting great bonuses and pay raises. Like 30% over 3 years.

[Mango]

I believe that our Constitution and laws exist to protect this nation - they do not grant rights and privileges to enemies in wartime. In dealing with terrorists, our tax dollars should pay for weapons to stop them, not lawyers to defend them.

I do not want one penny of our tax dollars to pay for the defense of foreign born terrorists.

you want our tax dollars to be spent on 'weapons to stop them' seriously fuckin laughable man. KILL THEM! KILL THE TERRORISTS! oh, wait, who are they??

[You Are Here]

my problem is with the economic hierarchy that is America... it is inherent within this system that the few are prosperous and the many will suffer

The fact that a relative few prosper is common to all systems of government with only incremental variation. The inherency is in human nature. The framers wisely set out to construct a system of government that would constrain that nature, at least with regard to governmental power.

Imagine you could construct a government from scratch. How would you reckon it out to be fair? Who decides what's fair? Flash forward 200 or 500 years and do you honestly believe that human nature will somehow not figure its collective way around whatever system you put in place? It's what we're made to do, to reason out and prevail.

...and on the thing about people rarely rising our of their "socioeconomic classes", rarely is not never and refer back to human nature above. People do rise, and do fall, and the majority stagnate. It's been true since the first go-getter figured out how to make fire.

The fact that humans refuse to accept is that suffering is a part of this world as is death. Any fool can agree that we must do what we can for our fellows but only a special kind of fool actually is willing to wait for a doctor so another (presumably needier) person can go first. We seek certainty where we can only get probabilities, and it leads us to ruin.

[jawdoc]

Doug good for you, my salary dropped about 15% this last year. The sisters are tough group to deal with.

[Mango]

The fact that a relative few prosper is common to all systems of government with only incremental variation. The inherency is in human nature. The framers wisely set out to construct a system of government that would constrain that nature, at least with regard to governmental power.

Imagine you could construct a government from scratch. How would you reckon it out to be fair? Who decides what's fair? Flash forward 200 or 500 years and do you honestly believe that human nature will somehow not figure its collective way around whatever system you put in place? It's what we're made to do, to reason out and prevail.

...and on the thing about people rarely rising our of their "socioeconomic classes", rarely is not never and refer back to human nature above. People do rise, and do fall, and the majority stagnate. It's been true since the first go-getter figured out how to make fire.

The fact that humans refuse to accept is that suffering is a part of this world as is death. Any fool can agree that we must do what we can for our fellows but only a special kind of fool actually is willing to wait for a doctor so another (presumably needier) person can go first. We seek certainty where we can only get probabilities, and it leads us to ruin.

wow. Maybe it is better not to have a politics forum.

[anddave]

eh.

I'll make sure my next diatribe is sunnier.

I mean, refusal to accept suffering and death is a necessary part of us and a good thing.

But it is also true that...

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[Psychedelic Oyster]

Ugh. I'd just like to point out that I'm not from here. I'm from the state who elected Jesse Ventura and Al Franken.

Coakley ran a terrible campaign, expecting to win with no effort, and she wasn't all that likeable.

Scott Brown is an overgroomed dweeb, who only made a splash thanks to ads that featured his truck about 15 times in 30 seconds. It's a dark grey half-ton, four door Chevy or GMC fullsize, about 4 years old or less, with 200k on it. I know way more about his stupid truck than I do about his politics. That's how his campaign was run. Ugh.

I agree with the above... slowing down the health care bill was the real point. I'm not fully on board with the health care bill myself but I hate to see any republican win after how badly they screwed up the country from 2000-2008.

I Am from Mass, and I couldn't agree more. They sold out to image, and I think health care should be a born given rite like it is most other countries. Scott Brown was a step backwards for sure. The chant that they all started with Kerry being next was very rude and disrespectful. They want to take over, as opposed to fixing any problems!

[bs69]

This is how I can say that 45,000 Americans die from lack of health insurance:

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/200...-deaths-a-year/

"The Harvard study found that people without health insurance had a 40 percent higher risk of death than those with private health insurance

[New York Steve]

I believe that our Constitution and laws exist to protect this nation - they do not grant rights and privileges to enemies in wartime. In dealing with terrorists, our tax dollars should pay for weapons to stop them, not lawyers to defend them.

I do not want one penny of our tax dollars to pay for the defense of foreign born terrorists.

I can't even respond to that.

[Guest deadheadmike]

I can't even respond to that.

your way to serious about stuff , N Y S .... I'm sending you more porno .

[Guest jazz-man]

At least porno serves a purpose. For me it does anyhow. I used to have a girlfriend who liked to...oops, wrong folder!

jawdoc I'm sorry to hear about your drop in income. Ouch, 15%. I can't make a go of it as it is, you'll hear more about that soon enough. My hopsital, as jawdoc alluded to, is run by a Catholic organization, the "sisters". They are known around here as the "Sisters Of Profit". They continually squeeze us and take away staff and add duties all the while saying they are good stewards of what God has given them. They turned the day-to-day operations over to some sharks years ago and their profits have risen sharply from that point. they are everything of what's wrong in corporate America. I could make a whole thread on this corporation by itself.

I have no problem with Tort reform, bring it on! Ever since that person got a zillion dollars for spilling McDonald coffee on her lap I've beem disgusted with that stuff. So do the Tort reform knowing that the settlements are less than 1% of all healthcare spending. Do it and get the cry of "Tort reform" out of the discussion, it's a red herring that detracts from the issues. How could anyone be against having all people having healthcare coverage? How?

[bs69]

At least porno serves a purpose. For me it does anyhow. I used to have a girlfriend who liked to...oops, wrong folder!

jawdoc I'm sorry to hear about your drop in income. Ouch, 15%. I can't make a go of it as it is, you'll hear more about that soon enough. My hopsital, as jawdoc alluded to, is run by a Catholic organization, the "sisters". They are known around here as the "Sisters Of Profit". They continually squeeze us and take away staff and add duties all the while saying they are good stewards of what God has given them. They turned the day-to-day operations over to some sharks years ago and their profits have risen sharply from that point. they are everything of what's wrong in corporate America. I could make a whole thread on this corporation by itself.

I have no problem with Tort reform, bring it on! Ever since that person got a zillion dollars for spilling McDonald coffee on her lap I've beem disgusted with that stuff. So do the Tort reform knowing that the settlements are less than 1% of all healthcare spending. Do it and get the cry of "Tort reform" out of the discussion, it's a red herring that detracts from the issues. How could anyone be against having all people having healthcare coverage? How?

I would love to see everyone have health care coverage. I just don't want to see our government in charge of it. Do you think the government is going to add staff and reduce duties at your hospital?

[Mango]

I can't even respond to that.

I'm glad that someone else found this as ridiculous as I did.

[blythalala]

I'm glad that someone else found this as ridiculous as I did.

me three

[uncle john]

I can't even respond to that.

Why not? I'm not a war and weapons guy, but I'd rather see our tax dollars strengthen the military versus paying for foreign terrorist's legal bills. Why is that such a crazy thought? Just my opinion. This is all meant to be civilized dialogue. Not to get anyone upset. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[NJJohn]

Eat right, exercise, don't smoke, etc...good advice and important to one's health. But genetics and fate are right there too. Even healthy people have car wrecks and healthy people get strokes, MS, cancers, etc.

I don't have a problem helping out those less fortunate than me. When has that become a bad thing to do?

I've heard people say good things and bad things about the VA or medicare and Medicaid, I'm not sure what to make of the argument.

I am tired of ring wing folks talking about the "big government boogieman". No one wants "bigger government" but one thing is certain: we cannot trust corporations to do the right thing. By deregulating corporations and their practises we stare at the worst recession since the Great Depression. I want no part of the Corporate States Of America. I work for one of those evil large not-for-profit corporations and if they had their way they wouldn't even pay us. My raise for the coming year: 1.92%! Inflation is officially 3% but expected to rise to 4-6% this year and more the next. And that's the 'official' inflation rate. The actual rate is higher. Anyhow I'm losing money each year while the corpration I work for is doing reaaaaly well and the management is getting great bonuses and pay raises. Like 30% over 3 years.

0% raise here. In fact , my last raise was 1.2% in 2008. The problem with most Government programs is the waste/fraud. Medicare is almost bankrupt. I do not trust the Government to run anything, especially something with so many moving parts as health insurance. By the way, the profit on health insurance companies is 2 - 3%. Big Pharma makes tons more.