Hammerstein Night Two

[subcooler]

Really? Well, I'll have to listen to it myself because a good friend of mine who I've been to tons of shows with and whom I trust, told me it was one of best shows he's been to in many a year.

Can't wait to hear the Satisfaction>Grow>Sugar and see if I agree with you about the train wreck analogy.

I hope you enjoy the show,sitting back & thinking about it... This is probably just another example of letting my dis-satisfaction over a detail in the show (in my mind major detail) jade my vision & the show no longer is fun. I just wasn't prepared for what unfolded last night in NYC (should have listened more to the Oakland furthur reviews-NWNJ Steve tried to prepare me).

In any event,hope to meet you@ a future DSO show & chat-I always appreciate your vision on the music we all love.You've pointed me toward some grate GD music in past threads!

Peace,

Rob

[anddave]

3 Jerry tunes to close the 2nd set on 12-8, 3 Bobby tunes to close the 2nd on 12-9. interesting.

bout time SOMEbody noticed that

old rules don't apply to this group and that makes some people feel uncomfortable

WORD.

[anddave]

All this ingratitude toward Phil and Bobby is embarrassing.

[VincentPuleo]

Truth, not one to say things like this that shouldn't have to be said but thinking of Rick Danko today really made appreciate Phil playing this music still, and in an inspired way still to say the least. He is a healthy man now and obviously grateful for everyday he is still on the earth especially because of how close he came to leaving it so soon. Going to cherish seeing him tomorrow.

[neutrino]

All this ingratitude toward Phil and Bobby is embarrassing.

I believe that a lot of the criticism expressed here should not be construed as ingratitude. It's just opinions on what is working with Furthur and what's not. I think all of us are grateful for Phil and Bob's legacy with the Grateful Dead. Without them, we wouldn't be here chattering away.

That said, I am most certainly not grateful to Phil and Bob for getting John to resign from DSO. Should I be? Obviously, this is John's choice and he is free to pursue his career as he sees fit. Whether it turns out to have been a wise choice only time will tell. So far, I'm not convinced it was the best move in a purely musical sense. I hope that my mind is changed in the future. I'll be there in San Francisco for both shows to see how this evolves, and I'm grateful for having that opportunity.

[VincentPuleo]

How could it not be? haha... John is playing with his heroes. People who have influenced him and inspired him so deeply, it would have been wrong to not do this.

[anddave]

it would have been wrong to not do this.

Word.

[redeyedbert]

All this ingratitude toward Phil and Bobby is embarrassing.

It is and I totally understand it, sort of.

I met my wife in 1996. She knew nothing of the Grateful Dead. She tolerated me and my constant playing of the Dead. She came along for some Other Ones and then the Dead from 98-2004. She wasn't that impressed. In 2007 I dragged her to a couple of DSO shows. She liked that more. We started to book travel around DSO shows. She is a DSO fan and not a Grateful Dead fan if that is possible. So right now she hates Bobby and Phil. lol. Hates them. They took her man. I tried to explain to her that she wouldn't even know John if it wasn't for them. She of course ain't buying that. Bobby and Phil took him!!!!

So while I do think its bs to hate on Bobby and Phil, the woman I love hates them and I understand. I imagine her story is similar to others here on the forums.

[anddave]

They took her man. I tried to explain to her that she wouldn't even know John if it wasn't for them. She of course ain't buying that. Bobby and Phil took him!!!!

Kinda yeah sorta maybe but "her man" is "her man" because of the music that took him long before Phil and Bobby took him, and that same music has taken him ...uh... furthur.

[redeyedbert]

Kinda yeah sorta maybe but "her man" is "her man" because of the music that took him long before Phil and Bobby took him, and that same music has taken him ...uh... furthur.

She knows, and she don't care. I mean she isn't stupid. She knows where the music comes from. Shes just selfish.

[anddave]

selfish.

Yes I agree. That is why I used the word "ingratitude". This whole endeavor starts with "Grateful" and with music: music for which we profess to be grateful and yet so many presume to act like they own that music and can dictate its path. Thanks very much for your comment. It's refreshingly forthright.

[found]

Listening to this Jack Straw now... completely bonkers. Great job by Jeff and John linkin up and leading to a great climax. Phil's doin some nice things, Bobby's rhythms are always spot on. Great flow of energy in this one.

[neutrino]

Yes I agree. That is why I used the word "ingratitude". This whole endeavor starts with "Grateful" and with music: music for which we profess to be grateful and yet so many presume to act like they own that music and can dictate its path. Thanks very much for your comment. It's refreshingly forthright.

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse here, but I'll throw out one additional thought. I am most certainly grateful for what Phil and Bobby have brought to the musical world. However, something to ponder:

Let's say you're a founding member of a legendary band that has been at it for some 40 years. However, you lost what many would agree to be most brilliant member of you band around 15 years earlier. Since then, you have been going through scores of musicians trying to regain the power in your music that was lost with the death of your late bandmember. In the meantime, for the past twelve years , a group of young people who really love your music form a band in tribute to the music. They are so fanatical, they play your previous concerts song-by-song in the same style that fits when it was originally played. Over a period of more than a decade, they work very hard to recapture the magic of your band. It's a hard life of unending touring, and not a huge financial payoff. However, they do it for the love of the music. You dismiss these guys as just another "cover band" and are somewhat disgusted with the attention they seem to be receiving. However, you finally give them a listen and realize that theyactually do kick ass. So what to do? Well, you might encourage them in their musical quest,realizing your earlier dismissal as being wrong. Perhaps when they are playing in the area, you might get into the Beamer and drive down from your beautiful home in Marin county to play a set with them. However, there is another possible option. You realize that their guitarist is really a remarkable talent and he might be just the thing you need to recapture the sound of your late musical brother. So instead of encouring the youngsters, you lure the guitarist away from the other young band for your own gain Is this "selfish", to use another term used in this thread?

Just something to consider. I am happy that JK is living what is certainly a fantasy for someone in his field. The ability to play with a couple of those individuals who invented this music is a dream. Playing in larger venues and making more money is certainly a great thing too. He deserves it. However, it is wrong to dismiss all those as "ingrates" who might not be completely thrilled with this chain of events. It's also seems to be a bit disrespectful to DSO to think that they should be thrilled as well. I'm sure they are thrilled FOR JOHN, but not with everything about this situation.

Just my opinion. I think I've now said more than enough on this subject.

[VincentPuleo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmiOBYJy2vk

[anddave]

trying to regain the power...are somewhat disgusted....need to recapture...for your own gain

If these assumed motivations were true then it would be sad indeed.

This is exactly what I am getting at.

To cast Phil and Bobby thus is insulting.

[found]

Satisfaction was alright, this let it grow is pretty smokin tho. Prop to bobby on this one. Nice transition into Sugar Mags.

[John A]

If these assumed motivations were true then it would be sad indeed.

This is exactly what I am getting at.

To cast Phil and Bobby thus is insulting.

I have to agree with this. In particular, the comment "disgusted with the attention they seem to be receiving" is way over the top. To ascribe that kind of mean spirited sentiment to Phil is way over the top.

Now that said, Phil singing Garcia/Hunter material IS indeed disgusting.

[neutrino]

I have to agree with this. In particular, the comment "disgusted with the attention they seem to be receiving" is way over the top. To ascribe that kind of mean spirited sentiment to Phil is way over the top.

Now that said, Phil singing Garcia/Hunter material IS indeed disgusting.

You're right! I don't have any personal knowledge about Phil's thoughts and actions to be making allegations about how this all went down. J apologize and will shut up on this subject.

[pwpolk]

Well after 153 posts, not sure if anyone is still paying attention but thought I would have to throw in my review.

I wish I could give an unbiased review but impossible not to draw comparisons to DSO and the Dead. Against both of these and on its own merits, I felt furthur fell short. I actually feel that JK not singing in the 2nd set was not a major factor necessarily (except on its own merits of song selection) but the bigger story to me was - no continuity, no synergy, no momentum and for whatever reason, John's guitar on a leash.

I do not know if this was by design or our of an unspoken respect by JK trying to give Phil and Bob room but I felt that for the most part, they did not come together as a band and let the music take them wherever it would. It was more like, this is Phil and Bobs show and JK had to take his foot off the gas a few times. Having said all this, there were moments of brilliance - Deal, Jack Straw, Unbroken Chain, Let it Grow - and to the point, these were the times that they seemed to flow as a band and JK was able to unleash a bit. I also quite liked Phils playing and how it was positioned in the mix. I feel his undisputed talents as a bass player were on display and were great, HOWEVER, I return to the theme that I think either by design or through respect, JK was making allowances for this and as a result, no flow to the show!

The thing that seemed to make GD great all those years and DSO so good was as a band, the music would chug along with its own momentum and individual contributions were of the moment, and motivated by the sound around them. In this case, it seems - for the moment - they are trying to create a certain balance and in the effort to manufacture something specific, they are missing the overall goal - spontaneous magic.

For the moment I give them a pass as this has got to be a work in progress and between GD and DSO, the bar has been set exceptionally and unrealistically high. I heard night 1 was much better and hey, even at their best the good ol' Grateful Deads could throw out a few clunkers. The Sound they are searching for will only reveal itself on stage and when they least expect it - but the cynic in me feels it will only be if they check egos at the door and don't try to manufacture it.

I will revisit at Radio City when they have had some time to work out the kinks. In the meantime, my one bit of advice...JK - let 'er Rip!!!!!

[Dstone5553]

It was more like, this is Phil and Bobs show and JK had to take his foot off the gas a few times.

This is what I care about most now. I am past all the singing stuff and have been for what feels like a long time--the Oakland 3 pack feels like it was 6 months ago! I am, however, hoping that the above statement happens less and less.

I think it's clear to all of us that if John is allowed to drive this train, it can go places not seen by Mr. Weir and Mr. Lesh in a long while.

Only time will tell and I can't say I am supremely confident... or even mildly confident for that matter, but I'm hoping that after their 20+ show tour in the spring, that both of these musicians, whom I greatly admire, will be eager to follow John wherever the moment takes him/them.

[gr8fulauditors]

This is what I care about most now. I am past all the singing stuff and have been for what feels like a long time--the Oakland 3 pack feels like it was 6 months ago! I am, however, hoping that the above statement happens less and less.

I think it's clear to all of us that if John is allowed to drive this train, it can go places not seen by Mr. Weir and Mr. Lesh in a long while.

Only time will tell and I can't say I am supremely confident... or even mildly confident for that matter, but I'm hoping that after their 20+ show tour in the spring, that both of these musicians, whom I greatly admire, will be eager to follow John wherever the moment takes him/them.

I want to belive that is there is some sort of communication with in this band.I would like it to come together sooner than that.Not only egos but voices may need a rest as well.I agree JK needs to to the govoner off of his guitar work and let it fly.We will see when they play the Shakedown,if JK is ready to take over.HE WILL get to sing that.

[subcooler]

I want to belive that is there is some sort of communication with in this band.I would like it to come together sooner than that.Not only egos but voices may need a rest as well.I agree JK needs to to the govoner off of his guitar work and let it fly.We will see when they play the Shakedown,if JK is ready to take over.HE WILL get to sing that.

Not trying to be controversial but....

The govenor as you called it was installed by Mr. Lesh & I doubt thats coming off any time soon (if @ all)!

Don't be amazed if Phil sings Shakedown/Stella/Comes a Time....the list goes on & on.

Go to the shows with an open mind & hope for the best!

See Ya in Asbury,

Rob

[HelpSlip]

I wish I could give an unbiased review but impossible not to draw comparisons to DSO and the Dead. Against both of these and on its own merits, I felt furthur fell short. I actually feel that JK not singing in the 2nd set was not a major factor necessarily (except on its own merits of song selection) but the bigger story to me was - no continuity, no synergy, no momentum and for whatever reason, John's guitar on a leash.

I do not know if this was by design or our of an unspoken respect by JK trying to give Phil and Bob room but I felt that for the most part, they did not come together as a band and let the music take them wherever it would. It was more like, this is Phil and Bobs show and JK had to take his foot off the gas a few times. Having said all this, there were moments of brilliance - Deal, Jack Straw, Unbroken Chain, Let it Grow - and to the point, these were the times that they seemed to flow as a band and JK was able to unleash a bit. I also quite liked Phils playing and how it was positioned in the mix. I feel his undisputed talents as a bass player were on display and were great, HOWEVER, I return to the theme that I think either by design or through respect, JK was making allowances for this and as a result, no flow to the show!

yall gotta realize that it is not a matter of "not letting" John sing. this is how Furthur setlists are going to play out. as "The Dead," lists did as did "Phil & Friends." some nights will be a lot of bob and phil, some nights more of Jk/jerr/shared mix..the lists this furthur tour are going to be some of the most interesting/creative in all of gd history (as we have already seen shows close Scarlet>Fire>ColdRain, and the other Satisfaction>GROW>SugarMag) ..up there with the creativity of '85

[anddave]

..up there with the creativity of '85

good comparison sez me!

[Dstone5553]

yall gotta realize that it is not a matter of "not letting" John sing. this is how Furthur setlists are going to play out. as "The Dead," lists did as did "Phil & Friends." some nights will be a lot of bob and phil, some nights more of Jk/jerr/shared mix..

the lists this furthur tour are going to be some of the most interesting/creative in all of gd history (as we have already seen shows close Scarlet>Fire>ColdRain, and the other Satisfaction>GROW>SugarMag) ..up there with the creativity of '85

We will be able to enjoy these shows when we start to embrace and understand what you said so well in the first part above.

Regarding the second part--I don't think you can compare this stuff or anything post '95 with the GD in terms of lists or paper. Back then Weir would always argue about not "mixing it up enough" with the GD set lists saying things like "if we didn't have a structure then there wouldn't be anything that ever stood out from that structure."--interviewers like Gans or Jackson would ask him why they would never CLOSE a show with something like China Doll. Because of the GD structure--they had songs to open shows, first set middle songs, first set closers, second set openers, pre drum songs, post space songs, show closing songs, etc...when they did a show where they opened a show with Scarlet>Fire or Eyes or played Walkin the Dog or Satisfaction or whatever...those times would stand out in a big way. Only because they adhered to their structure so diligently. It was interesting to see a song find it's place with them too. A song like Standing on the Moon did not immediately find it's rightful post space ballad slot until it got played enough and showed all of them where it HAD to go. However, Day Between knew right off the bat.

Nothing post '95 stands out cause there are no rules at all. Anything goes. So you can't compare anything set wise to GD paper. Now getting 4 consecutive monster Weir songs to close out the show like a few nights ago stands out but for different reasons (and I know that Satisfaction is a Stones song and Johnny is a Berry song).